decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

[Bad Thoughts]

Based on his interactions with Rugal, O'Brien was convinced that the Bajoran adoptive parents taught Rugal self-hatred. That would make them unfit.

 

[Farscape One]

A teenager who sees how his species is brutally oppressing the people he loves might become self-loathing even if his adoptive parents do everything they can to teach him not to.

Hell, it's more likely he came to hate his species as a result of prejudice from his fellow students in school.



There is no reason to believe his adoptive parents did that to him.



Nope, and the assumption that a Bajoran judge can't be unbiased is bigotry. It resembles Donald Trump's racist belief that a U.S. judge of Mexican heritage could not be unbiased towards him because of his stated policy goals re the U.S.-Mexico border.



Tough shit. It's not your call to make -- it's the Bajoran Republic's.



So if an analogous situation had occurred in India a year after the U.K. ended its centuries-long occupation, you would claim an Indian court could not be trusted to adjudicate the issue without bias?



I'm sorry, but this is false. Everyone in France was affected by the war. And just like not all French people were in France during that time, not a Bajorans were on Bajor during the occupation; we learned that in TNG "Ensign Ro."



And there was nowhere in France that wasn't harmed by the Nazi invasion and occupation of their country.

If a French court could be trusted to adjudicate an analogous situation in the immediate aftermath of the German occupation of France, then a Bajoran court could be trusted to adjudicate the Rugal custody issue.



And, again, it is the right of the Provisional Government of the Bajoran Republic to delegate to a third party its sovereign right to adjudicate the issue.

But it was, indeed, a delegation of a right that naturally belonged to the Bajoran Republic and no one else.

Yes, it was the right of the Bajorans to have a third party (Sisko) be the judge for this case. And they exercised it clearly because Sisko was arbitrating it in the episode. I never said it wasn't. Hell, I said it was the best solution in that scenario.

And whether you agreed with the decision or not, it was their call to allow that, just as you said... "Tough shit. It's not your call to make -- it's the Bajoran Republic's."

 

[Oddish]

Rugal was in an impossible situation, regardless. If he returns to Cardassia, he is immersed in a culture he has learned to hate, has to eat food he doesn't like, and has to live under a totalitarian regime.

If he stays on Bajor, though, he is endlessly reminded of the appalling things his people did, and even if his parents were good to him, he's tarred with the same brush by everyone else. Given that the other Cardassian kids on Bajor probably had it worse, the Federation probably should have made arrangements to either repatriate them, or (if the Cardassians wouldn't take them back) relocate them to a Federation world that hadn't gone through a 60-year genocide at their species' hands.

 

[Sci]

I said unpersoning, not genocidal. Good grief, pay attention

You literally claimed they were raising him to think Cardassians should be annihilated.

Rugal was in an impossible situation, regardless. If he returns to Cardassia, he is immersed in a culture he has learned to hate, has to eat food he doesn't like, and has to live under a totalitarian regime.

If he stays on Bajor, though, he is endlessly reminded of the appalling things his people did, and even if his parents were good to him, he's tarred with the same brush by everyone else. Given that the other Cardassian kids on Bajor probably had it worse, the Federation probably should have made arrangements to either repatriate them, or (if the Cardassians wouldn't take them back) relocate them to a Federation world that hadn't gone through a 60-year genocide at their species' hands.

I mean, if they want to, sure, but you're assuming that the Bajorans would subject the Cardassian orphans to a level of oppression that I don't think is supported by the text. Those kids will probably face some prejudice, sure, but there's every possibility that that prejudice won't be systemic or universal. There's no reason to think a Cardassian child raised on Bajor can't grow up to be a happy, well-adjusted member of Bajoran society.

For that matter, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a decent-sized Cardassian expat community on Bajor -- dissidents and exiles and people who developed ties to Bajor during the occupation. Real-life occupations rarely see every single citizen of the occupying power leave; there were (and still are) plenty of Brits living in India after independence, for instance.

 

[kkt]

There is absolutely no indication whatsoever from the actual episode that the Prokas were teaching Rugal to believe Cardassians were deserving of annihilation. You're just making shit up now.



Hate to tell you this, but it's not like the scenario in "Cardassians" is uncommon in conflict zones or former conflict zones. There will, for instance, probably be more than a few Russian children adopted by Ukrainians once Russian forces have finally left the occupied parts of Ukraine. And it's not uncommon for the parents in those scenarios to simultaneously love their adopted children yet hate the culture those children came from. This shit can be damaging to the kids, it's true. But it's also not necessarily as extreme as what you keep claiming.

People are complex. This stuff isn't a binary.

Yes, and to hit a little closer to home there were plenty of children of American troops with Korean and Vietnamese women who were left behind, permanently out of place in their birth country while not having the right to enter the United States even if they had a means of getting here, and not free of prejudice even if they did get here.

 

[Sci]

Yes, and to hit a little closer to home there were plenty of children of American troops with Korean and Vietnamese women who were left behind, permanently out of place in their birth country while not having the right to enter the United States even if they had a means of getting here, and not free of prejudice even if they did get here.

Yep. Occupations rarely end as cleanly as the Cardassian Occupation is implied to have ended in DS9.

And it goes without saying, but: it is the natural right of the courts of Vietnam and Korea to adjudicate these sorts of custody disputes on their soil, period.

 

[kkt]

Yes, who else's courts would they use to decide custody? Not American, certainly - although American courts would get to weigh in on the child's right to enter the country if they can prove a parent was an American citizen.

 

[Tosk]

Based on his interactions with Rugal, O'Brien was convinced that the Bajoran adoptive parents taught Rugal self-hatred. That would make them unfit.

The assessment of Mister "Gentle was bred out of these Cardassians a long time ago" after one evening with Rugal? He's welcome to his opinion, just as we all are.

I do love a good impossible situation on Trek. I much prefer a spirited discussion like this rather than an argument on how long the Enterprise really is.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The assessment of Mister "Gentle was bred out of these Cardassians a long time ago" after one evening with Rugal? He's welcome to his opinion, just as we all are.

Miles O'Brien and his opinion, as a temporary foster parent, would be qualified to provide witness to Rugal's state and welfare to child welfare officials, the police, and indeed, the court in modern society.


You and your opinion would be qualified to read about it in the paper.

 

[Tosk]

Miles O'Brien and his opinion, as a temporary foster parent, would be qualified to provide witness to Rugal's state and welfare to child welfare officials, the police, and indeed, the court in modern society.

Right, and then those with the actual power to make decisions do so based on all of the opinions and facts at hand.

I wonder if Miles bothered to repeat that opinion to Sisko rather than only saying it to Rugal's bio-pop.

 

[Beard of Sisko]

You can't know their 'true' motivations any better than I can. We can only assume based on what Proka and Rugal say. You claim they raised him to hate himself, but Rugal himself refutes that. He understands the difference between the way they feel about Cardassians and the way they feel about him. He hates the Cardassians for what they did, not just "because his parents say so."

Indeed. The whole first chunk of a novel, in fact.

I have every reason to believe he was adopted out of revenge given their glaring lack of concern for his self loathing. Their silence is their tacit approval.

 

[Beard of Sisko]

You literally claimed they were raising him to think Cardassians should be annihilated.

Wrong. I was speaking of a hypothetical regarding a Mexican child. I didn't mention Rugal in that analogy.

Try reading before replying.

 

[Beard of Sisko]

The assessment of Mister "Gentle was bred out of these Cardassians a long time ago" after one evening with Rugal? He's welcome to his opinion, just as we all are.

I do love a good impossible situation on Trek. I much prefer a spirited discussion like this rather than an argument on how long the Enterprise really is.

The difference is O'Brien tried to deal with his bigotry (at least outwardly) after Keiko called him out. Rugal's adoptive parents made no such effort.

 

[Tosk]

The difference is O'Brien tried to deal with his bigotry (at least outwardly) after Keiko called him out. Rugal's adoptive parents made no such effort.

I can't imagine why.

 

[Beard of Sisko]

I can't imagine why.

Past victimhood doesn't excuse present immorality.

If it was that much of an obstacle for them, they shouldn't have adopted a Cardassian.

Again, this is the claim that bigotry is fine as long as it comes from the "correct" side.

 

[Tosk]

Again, this is the claim that bigotry is fine as long as it comes from the "correct" side.

As I said last time, no one said bigotry is "okay". Understanding is not the same as approval.

 

[Beard of Sisko]

As I said last time, no one said bigotry is "okay". Understanding is not the same as approval.

Diminishing, downplaying or excusing is effectively the same as justifying.

My sympathies go out the window once you start acting like a scumbag.

 

[DonIago]

Understanding isn't the same thing as excusing either. Understanding is simply comprehending one's motivations for doing a thing.

We understand why the Founders feel they need to control the Solids. We don't excuse or approve of it, especially given their methodology.

 

[Oddish]

Indeed, understanding a behavior is often the first step toward eliminating it.

 

[TheSeeker]

@Beard of Sisko, If you want to reply to multiple posts, please use the multi-quote feature. You can find it right next to the reply button at the bottom, righthand side of each post.

Wrong. I was speaking of a hypothetical regarding a Mexican child. I didn't mention Rugal in that analogy.

Try reading before replying.

This post seems unnecessarily hostile. Let's try and keep discussion civil please.