decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

[Sci]

On the contrary, that one scene alone gives every good reason to believe it and I'm beyond tired of all these excuses.

It's actually fairly common for parents who adopted children from other racial groups or cultures to transmit a certain amount of prejudice to their children. It can cause problems. No one's contesting that.

But that is a far cry from your claim that it's the same thing as "brainwashing the child into self-loathing bigotry."

It seems to me you're under the impression that it's impossible for someone to be a scumbag if they were mistreated.

No, I just know that there's a big difference between what we saw and what you're claiming.

 

[Sci]

Then don't adopt a Cardassian child if you hate Cardassians that much, especially if you're unable to hold back from brainwashing him into self loathing.

I hate to tell you this, but people are very complex creatures. It is entirely possible both to love a Cardassian child and to hold prejudice against Cardassians. It is entirely possible to try to teach that child to love themselves and to inadvertently transmit some level of prejudice to the child and for that to be a far cry from "brainwashing the child into self-loathing bigotry." These things exist along a spectrum; they're not binaries.

 

[Beard of Sisko]

I hate to tell you this, but people are very complex creatures. It is entirely possible both to love a Cardassian child and to hold prejudice against Cardassians. It is entirely possible to try to teach that child to love themselves and to inadvertently transmit some level of prejudice to the child and for that to be a far cry from "brainwashing the child into self-loathing bigotry." These things exist along a spectrum; they're not binaries.

Except what we're talking about here goes beyond simple prejudice and into full blown hatred of another race. Prejudice is believing a Mexican child likes tacos, hatred is believing that his heritage makes him inferior and worthy of annihilation.

If you had a hatred of a particular racial group would you consider it wise to adopt a child from that demographic?

 

[Sci]

Except what we're talking about here goes beyond simple prejudice and into full blown hatred of another race. Prejudice is believing a Mexican child likes tacos, hatred is believing that his heritage makes him inferior and worthy of annihilation.

There is absolutely no indication whatsoever from the actual episode that the Prokas were teaching Rugal to believe Cardassians were deserving of annihilation. You're just making shit up now.

If you had a hatred of a particular racial group would you consider it wise to adopt a child from that demographic?

Hate to tell you this, but it's not like the scenario in "Cardassians" is uncommon in conflict zones or former conflict zones. There will, for instance, probably be more than a few Russian children adopted by Ukrainians once Russian forces have finally left the occupied parts of Ukraine. And it's not uncommon for the parents in those scenarios to simultaneously love their adopted children yet hate the culture those children came from. This shit can be damaging to the kids, it's true. But it's also not necessarily as extreme as what you keep claiming.

People are complex. This stuff isn't a binary.

 

[Tosk]

Then don't adopt a Cardassian child if you hate Cardassians that much

They adopted a child because they wanted to help him despite his species. "My wife and I felt that Rugal shouldn't suffer for crimes committed by others."

especially if you're unable to hold back from brainwashing him into self loathing.

Telling the truth is not brainwashing.

 

[Beard of Sisko]

Telling the truth is not brainwashing.

No, but teaching someone to unperson an entire race most certainly is.

 

[Sci]

No, but teaching someone to unperson an entire race most certainly is.

Show me where anything they said amounts to "teaching him to unperson an entire race."

 

[Beard of Sisko]

Show me where anything they said amounts to "teaching him to unperson an entire race."

The things we hear him say throughout the episode are a good indicator of how he was taught. Plus his parents glaring lack of concern for his extreme self-loathing.

 

[Beard of Sisko]

There is absolutely no indication whatsoever from the actual episode that the Prokas were teaching Rugal to believe Cardassians were deserving of annihilation. You're just making shit up now.[/QUOT



Hate to tell you this, but it's not like the scenario in "Cardassians" is uncommon in conflict zones or former conflict zones. There will, for instance, probably be more than a few Russian children adopted by Ukrainians once Russian forces have finally left the occupied parts of Ukraine. And it's not uncommon for the parents in those scenarios to simultaneously love their adopted children yet hate the culture those children came from. This shit can be damaging to the kids, it's true. But it's also not necessarily as extreme as what you keep claiming.

People are complex. This stuff isn't a binary.

Firstly, I was simply explaining the difference between prejudice and full blown hatred.

Secondly, way to dodge the question.

I ask you again; if you had a deep-seated hatred of a particular racial group, would you consider it wise and compassionate to adopt a child from that demographic?

 

[Tosk]

I ask you again; if you had a deep-seated hatred of a particular racial group, would you consider it wise and compassionate to adopt a child from that demographic?

They did it to help the child despite his species. What is the alternative? Who exactly was going to adopt the Cardassian orphans on Bajor if not Bajorans?

 

[Beard of Sisko]

They did it to help the child despite his species. What is the alternative? Who exactly was going to adopt the Cardassian orphans on Bajor if not Bajorans?

If I had a deep-seated prejudice of a particular group, I would consider it more compassionate for them to stay at the orphanage.

 

[Sci]

The things we hear him say throughout the episode are a good indicator of how he was taught.

At no point is there any indication of the kind of genocidal thinking you are falsely attributing to the Prokas.

Firstly, I was simply explaining the difference between prejudice and full blown hatred.

I don't think you understand that difference, since you keep equating the former to the latter.

 

[Tosk]

If I had a deep-seated prejudice of a particular group, I would consider it more compassionate for them to stay at the orphanage.

Okay, good to know. We're all different.

 

[Beard of Sisko]

At no point is there any indication of the kind of genocidal thinking you are falsely attributing to the Prokas.



I don't think you understand that difference, since you keep equating the former to the latter.

He is most definitely unpersoning Cardassians as a result of how he was taught. The things we hear him say combined with his adoptive parents apparent lack of concern for his self-loathing make it highly likely that he was adopted out of revenge.

 

[Tosk]

"I wish they'd shown as much concern when they left my boy and dozens like him to fend for themselves."
"My wife and I felt that Rugal shouldn't suffer for crimes committed by others."
"...we love him just as if he were our own flesh and blood."

What an asshole.

 

[Sci]

He is most definitely unpersoning Cardassians as a result of how he was taught. The things we hear him say combined with his adoptive parents apparent lack of concern for his self-loathing make it highly likely that he was adopted out of revenge.

Not a single line of dialogue supports the idea that the Prokas were raising Rugal with genocidal feelings towards Cardassians as you claim.

 

[Beard of Sisko]

Not a single line of dialogue supports the idea that the Prokas were raising Rugal with genocidal feelings towards Cardassians as you claim.

I said unpersoning, not genocidal. Good grief, pay attention

 

[Beard of Sisko]

"I wish they'd shown as much concern when they left my boy and dozens like him to fend for themselves."
"My wife and I felt that Rugal shouldn't suffer for crimes committed by others."
"...we love him just as if he were our own flesh and blood."

What an asshole.

Actions speak louder than words. You raise a child to hate himself while showing no concern at all for his self-loathing, anything you say about "loving" him rings hollow. They aren't being honest about their motivations.

 

[Oddish]

Both sides have made valid arguments. I remember thinking it odd that Sisko was arbitrating this matter, but upon rewatching, it made a lot more sense.

Regardless, I think Rugal had a long time to bitterly regret taking that bite out of Garak.

 

[Tosk]

Actions speak louder than words. You raise a child to hate himself while showing no concern at all for his self-loathing, anything you say about "loving" him rings hollow. They aren't being honest about their motivations.

You can't know their 'true' motivations any better than I can. We can only assume based on what Proka and Rugal say. You claim they raised him to hate himself, but Rugal himself refutes that. He understands the difference between the way they feel about Cardassians and the way they feel about him. He hates the Cardassians for what they did, not just "because his parents say so."

Regardless, I think Rugal had a long time to bitterly regret taking that bite out of Garak.

Indeed. The whole first chunk of a novel, in fact.