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Spoilers DC's Legends of Tomorrow - Season 1

He wasn't even troubled - he was a good, quiet, shy kid who never had any idea that his estranged father was an assassin for a cult, or that he had been subliminally programmed with everything he needed, since birth, to take on the role himself. Bruce was trying to help him gain control of his training ("The System") but once it was in control it was almost like a Jekyll and Hyde thing going on, with the programming taking over. The Bane / prison break / breaking of the Hero part of the story is easy to parallel.... the dark replacement, less so. Even though I envisioned it with Slade, they honestly could have done it this season, with Dark in the Bane role, and Oliver being paralyzed instead of Felicity.

Still think that they totally missed the boat with Sara and the pit and doing the classic Red Hood story. Former partner/sidekick, killed by the arch nemesis, with the hero taking no form of vengeance; Resurrected in the Pit by Ra's out of regret; Returned as a darker more brutal vigilante, tainted with darkness and revenge and hatred for the former partner, who allowed the Villain to go on unpunished.

Diggle is basically the Alfred spot (especially considering some versions of Alfred are bad ass former miltary)..... although it is an absolute shame that due to the live action movies, they will never consider what I think would be the most natural and organic evolution of John (and his friendship with Oliver)..... Diggle needs a damn Power Ring..... They couldn't have done a better John Stewart if they tried (look, personality, background, morals).

Makes me wonder if some of the Bat-stuff was taken off the Arrow table, so to speak, due to Gotham.
 
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Phoenix219 said:
Diggle is basically the Alfred spot (especially considering some versions of Alfred are bad ass former miltary)..... although it is an absolute shame that due to the live action movies, they will never consider what I think would be the most natural and organic evolution of John (and his friendship with Oliver)..... Diggle needs a damn Power Ring..... They couldn't have done a better John Stewart if they tried (look, personality, background, morals).
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I agree -- is it too late to say his middle name is indeed Stewart?

At the very least, can we give him a better code-name? Where's Cisco when you need him?
 
Huh...I thought for sure that Mick hadn't really gone rogue and had a plan to show them that he wasn't as dumb as they thought he was....
 
Morpheus 02 said:
I agree -- is it too late to say his middle name is indeed Stewart?

At the very least, can we give him a better code-name? Where's Cisco when you need him?
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I think they decided against anything like that when the live action movies decided they wanted John Stewart, not to mention the comics now have both existing as independant characters. Its a damn shame.... they completely created a believable GL/GA friendship that completely works without even trying, but can't even go there. Even just a single episode foreshadowing it, or a single episode where a ring finds him because the current user is incapacitated (but not dead), so its a temporaray gig, or something to that effect. anything.... i've been saying this since probably late S1/early S2. The live action movies have really handcuffed the CWverse.
 
It was clear that when John Diggle was introduced to the regular Green Arrow comics that they had no intention of making him John Stewart, a Green Lantern.
 
The Old Mixer said:
Huh...I thought for sure that Mick hadn't really gone rogue and had a plan to show them that he wasn't as dumb as they thought he was....
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Yeah, I was expecting much the same thing. It was a pretty bold choice to have him genuinely turn on the team. I'm reminded of what's been said in various interviews about how the cast of the show is not guaranteed to remain constant. Although we don't know yet just what happened in that final scene. I wonder when they were. It seems to me one option would've been to drop Mick off in some era of history where he couldn't do any harm -- say, the Americas maybe 20,000 years ago, before human settlement. He could probably manage pretty well on his own. He'd certainly have no trouble starting a campfire.

The rest didn't work quite so well. Couldn't Ray have shrunk down, squeezed through the sealed hatch, and fixed the breach from the inside? Didn't it occur to anyone that Stein and Jax should be kept together in case Firestorm was needed? And I'm not crazy about the team defeating the time pirates by sucking them out into space. It's a more lethal solution than I'd prefer.
 
Christopher said:
He'd certainly have no trouble starting a campfire.
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Har Har!

I thought he might have been taken to the distant past as well. Somewhere in the wilderness.

That was a great bottle show. Lots of action and lots good stuff especially for Mick and Rip. Felt for both of them. I hope that Mick isn't gone for good.
 
I thought it was a mostly weak episode. It was appropriate that this episode had so many Star Trek references. This was similar to the many "Bottle Episodes" filmed mostly on standing sets to save money.
 
I thought it also served as a nice little space adventure, kicked off by a pretty awesome jump into hyperspace just before the title card.
 
FWIW, Mick didn't really fit in. He was too unstable. If they killed off Hawkman after the second episode, no one is really safe.
 
The Time masters are going to recruit Mick Rory in a later episode... And there's going to have to be a back to the Future Two episode where they're running interference between a previous episode.
 
I actually enjoyed this one for the most part. A nice little space adventure with some solid character stories going on.

It wasn't perfect - how does Stein defeat an armed pirate with his bare hands? And why not even try to use firestorm against the pirates, rather than the airlock trick? And why would a former time master (trainee) retire to a place and time that was destined to be overrun by Savage in the first place?
Also, the other captain's change of heart was rather convenient, and the comment about hunting Savage farther in the past to preserve the element of surprise didn't really do the time travel setup any favors, either.

But those were all relatively minor.

The Mick story was indeed unexpected and pretty bold. I like it when a show tries to break out of its comfort zone a bit, and the character stuff between Mick, Hunter, Snart and Sara was all great.

Atom/Hawkgirl is turning out much more fun and interesting than I expected, and Stein was very entertaining. I also loved the way Rip controlled the entire battle through the computer.

Christopher said:
The rest didn't work quite so well. Couldn't Ray have shrunk down, squeezed through the sealed hatch, and fixed the breach from the inside? Didn't it occur to anyone that Stein and Jax should be kept together in case Firestorm was needed? And I'm not crazy about the team defeating the time pirates by sucking them out into space. It's a more lethal solution than I'd prefer.
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Does the Atom suit not have a limit? And do we even have any idea how strong/impenetrable the seal on those doors is? Even if he could get through, using his laser to seal the breach from the inside seems likely to melt Snart's ice patch and possibly lead to the quick deaths of the two people who don't have their own dedicated oxygen supply.

Also, it seems unlikely this is the first time they've actually killed their enemies - the heat and cold guns have been used very liberally and they're not the safest things in the world. Not to mention Rip's ray gun.

I do wish they'd make more tactical decisions in general, like not constantly splitting firestorm up, but their lack of consideration for that sort of thing does rather fit the characterization so far. Maybe Rip thought a fight on space ship would be limited to fisticuffs, so he left behind the old guy who wouldn't keep up?
 
On a side note, the producers have explicitly stated that Leonard Snart is a gay character, though it hasn't been fully disclosed on the show. I thought about this last night, especially with the Snart/Rory dynamic, and Leonard was saying how much he valued Mick as a partner (in crime, I suppose, but there could've been something else).
 
grendelsbayne said:
Does the Atom suit not have a limit? And do we even have any idea how strong/impenetrable the seal on those doors is? Even if he could get through, using his laser to seal the breach from the inside seems likely to melt Snart's ice patch and possibly lead to the quick deaths of the two people who don't have their own dedicated oxygen supply.
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Of course that's not what I was suggesting. Logically, any spaceship would be equipped with repair kits for patching hull breaches from the inside. He evidently had some replacement plates with him to cover the hole from the outside, so why not just cover it from the inside?

For that matter, I'm not convinced that the ice patch was so ineffective. Sure, ice exposed to vacuum might sublimate away eventually, but we've seen Snart's cold gun create massive quantities of ice in seconds -- enough to encase the Flash's entire body, for instance. Surely he could've created a patch that would've been airtight long enough for Gideon to let them out of the room.

Also, it seems unlikely this is the first time they've actually killed their enemies - the heat and cold guns have been used very liberally and they're not the safest things in the world. Not to mention Rip's ray gun.
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But that's exactly my problem. The issue isn't that it's never been done before, the issue is that it's done too damn often and too damn casually. In the comics, superheroes usually have codes against killing. The Green Arrow and his team have nominally, theoretically renounced killing (though sometimes it sure seems like they're using deadly force), and the Flash generally tends to avoid it except in extreme circumstances. And Supergirl, refreshingly, has been quite emphatic about her unwillingness to kill, and Superman's as well. But too many screen superheroes kill casually and routinely, and it's the one major thing about the comics that even the best screen adaptations still tend to get wrong. The current movie Superman has been defined by the moment when he killed his enemy. In Marvel, most of the movie heroes are quite frequently killers, and the supposedly "darker" Daredevil and Jessica Jones are the only MCU heroes other than Ant-Man who've ever expressed the slightest reluctance to kill their opponents. (Well, the Agents of SHIELD generally use nonlethal guns, but we've also seen Coulson and his team spending much of the season actively trying to assassinate Grant Ward.)


I do wish they'd make more tactical decisions in general, like not constantly splitting firestorm up, but their lack of consideration for that sort of thing does rather fit the characterization so far. Maybe Rip thought a fight on space ship would be limited to fisticuffs, so he left behind the old guy who wouldn't keep up?
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And maybe it's dangerous to form Firestorm inside a spaceship. Mick was saying earlier that a spaceship was the one place where he couldn't light things on fire. I imagine that would be compounded with regard to nuclear "fire."
 
grendelsbayne said:
It wasn't perfect - how does Stein defeat an armed pirate with his bare hands? And why not even try to use firestorm against the pirates, rather than the airlock trick?
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I kept asking myself the same thing. The jeopardy could have easily been neutralized by just flaming on. But intead, they both stood around and let themselves be captured again...Also, before Stein rescused them from the brig, why weren't Jax and Stein 'sensing' each other? But if they did, then the script would not have allowed them to sit around and wonder if the Prof were alright or not.

It was a better balanced episode, and the show has steadily progressed from it's premiere. Hopefully, the momentum continues to move forward, but I'm still not entirely sure exactly where it's headed and whether it can exceed the sum of it's parts. The whole Vandal Savage part holds no interest for me (due entirely to the casting of the role), and their time travel rules need solidifying-just how are they going to deal with exposing the team to him in periods before their (our) first encounters happened [ackk-I hate temporal mechanics...], so it was nice to get away from it again.
 
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