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Spoilers DC's Legends of Tomorrow - Season 1

The Soviet Union still exists because they had Firestorms, and I guess Gorbachev decided to ignite the Second Cold War. Star City (or, rather, Starling City) was stated to be the main seat of the resistance until 2003, and Rip showed us what it would look like in alternate 2016.

So I'm guessing that the Soviets took over most of the United States, culminating in the final takeover in 2003, and the 2016 scene was a military attack on some new rebel groups. Oliver Queen is probably a senior member of the United States Communist Party (Red Arrow?).
 
Firestorm soldiers are shit, but Afghanistan (Who was a problem for Russia at the time) would have fallen, and then Iraq and Iran as Russia decided to control all the oil in the Middle East as Firestorm technology (not people, the actual technology) made nuclear energy a thousand times more efficient/useful and a billion times safer to power the national grid and everyone's car.

So Russia then has free energy, while controlling all the oil in the middle east that IT DOES NOT NEED! From that position, surely you don't also need a military offensive to back up your already unsaid total victory over a world too dumb to notice who their Master is?

Rather than send a hundred firestorms to raze a couple cities or slowly murder 200 million people, a sane tactical genius would probably either...

1. Quadruple the price of oil and bankrupt any country trying to make it without getting on their knees before Vandal Savage.

2. Out right embargo anyone that doesn't get on their knees before Vandal, and watch their oil based economies falter and die.

3. Set the oil fields on fire, and laugh your ass off about the ludicrousy of any dickhead thinking that they register as more than fleas to Vandal Savage.
 
This was easily the best episode of the series so far. Or maybe I'm just starting to ignore the lapses in logic.

One thing I remember from the Firestorm comic--I think it was the second series in the early eighties--is that Stein could initiate the fusion without Ronny being present. I was kind of hoping we'd see that in this episode.
 
Ah, but the CW version of Firestorm has to touch to initiate fusion unlike the comic version who can fuse even if many miles apart.
 
Guy Gardener said:
Speaking as a hung Lantern, if you cross your own time line a city eating black hole appears like in the bridge between seasons of the Flash. Rip alluded to something bad happening if they try to play with themselves directly which was probably an opening singularity again that among other things caused Eobard Thawne to seemingly evaporate.

It's like how Wile E. Coyote can walk on air, not falling off a cliff, so long as he doesn't notice that he is walking on air when he should be falling.

Time leaves you alone until you know in your heart for sure that you are a paradox.
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matthunter said:
Yep.

If Kendra or Sara did this, I expect a lot of men would suddenly explode.
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They screwed with their own pasts multiple times already... Nothing bad happened.

Christopher said:
In theory, maybe, but not so easy in practice when you're surrounded by a bunch of Soviet prison guards who are loyal to Savage and already trying to kill you. Same in the previous instance where they were surrounded by a bunch of Savage's cultists who were trying to kill them. In neither case did they really have the opportunity to take Savage's body anywhere.
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They managed to get themselves out with seemingly no difficulty whatsoever. Pulling a single half burnt corpse/ bag of body parts along doesn't seem like it would make a huge difference. Soviet prison guards aren't really equipped to stop a timeship - especially in the face of actual superheroes in the middle of a prison riot. Not to mention, I doubt that many of the guards where really overly loyal to Savage in the first place. Valentina and her men worked for him. The rest were probably just regular soviet prison guards.
 
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Even if Stein doesn't know what it's like to be a woman, from the 4 and half minutes he spent as a woman, from this point forward, he can claim full female rights and privileges during any conversation about woman's issues or site that he is honestly speaking from a female point of view when he presents his point of view.
 
grendelsbayne said:
They managed to get themselves out with seemingly no difficulty whatsoever. Pulling a single half burnt corpse/ bag of body parts along doesn't seem like it would make a huge difference.
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Just because they survived, that doesn't mean they faced no difficulty. I mean, come on, it's the action-packed climactic escape sequence of a TV episode -- the last thing the writers would ever want to do in such a situation is to make it effortless for the heroes. We can safely stipulate that they barely got away by the skin of their teeth, because that's how action-adventure storytelling works. And that means they couldn't afford anything that would slow them down.

More to the point, their escape was most likely possible because of the distraction caused by the explosion Rip set off. The only way Rip could've gotten Savage out was by not setting off the explosion, and then trying to laboriously drag out his corpse (because he was alone with Savage at the time) -- and without the damage and distraction of the explosion, the guards would've been far less preoccupied and far more likely to intercept him.



Soviet prison guards aren't really equipped to stop a timeship - especially in the face of actual superheroes in the middle of a prison riot.
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We're not even talking about the timeship here. In both cases where Hunter temporarily killed Savage, they were a considerable distance away from the timeship with a lot of bad guys between them and it. It was getting Savage to the timeship in the first place that would've been prohibitively difficult.


Not to mention, I doubt that many of the guards where really overly loyal to Savage in the first place. Valentina and her men worked for him. The rest were probably just regular soviet prison guards.
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So? They're still Soviet prison guards, which means they're not going to just let people walk out of their gulag.
 
Christopher said:
Just because they survived, that doesn't mean they faced no difficulty. I mean, come on, it's the action-packed climactic escape sequence of a TV episode -- the last thing the writers would ever want to do in such a situation is to make it effortless for the heroes. We can safely stipulate that they barely got away by the skin of their teeth, because that's how action-adventure storytelling works. And that means they couldn't afford anything that would slow them down.

More to the point, their escape was most likely possible because of the distraction caused by the explosion Rip set off. The only way Rip could've gotten Savage out was by not setting off the explosion, and then trying to laboriously drag out his corpse (because he was alone with Savage at the time) -- and without the damage and distraction of the explosion, the guards would've been far less preoccupied and far more likely to intercept him.





We're not even talking about the timeship here. In both cases where Hunter temporarily killed Savage, they were a considerable distance away from the timeship with a lot of bad guys between them and it. It was getting Savage to the timeship in the first place that would've been prohibitively difficult.




So? They're still Soviet prison guards, which means they're not going to just let people walk out of their gulag.
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Their escape was possible because of the distraction of the prison riot - the explosion was incidental. Also, maybe I misheard, but didn't they mention something about flying the timeship over the prison for a quick escape at the end? And, since Hawkgirl could fly in completely undetected carrying Jefferson, she could easily fly out carrying a body. As for the assumption that they made it out by the skin of their teeth? Meh. It's an assumption. As far as adventure writing goes, the climax part here was quite clearly focused on facing down Savage and Valentina. Everything after that was basically cut out of the episode, so I can just as easily assume that they got out with no difficulty whatsoever.
 
grendelsbayne said:
Everything after that was basically cut out of the episode, so I can just as easily assume that they got out with no difficulty whatsoever.
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I've never seen the value in assuming that something couldn't have happened in the way it clearly did happen. The facts are the facts. We need to adjust our interpretations to fit the facts, not complain that the facts don't fit our beliefs. In-story, the fact is that they haven't taken Savage's body with them so Hawkgirl could kill him. Therefore, there must be a reason why they didn't do so. I'm just trying to offer an answer that will make sense of that. I think it's much more productive to find a solution to a problem than to shoot down solutions and just keep complaining about the problem.
 
Christopher said:
I've never seen the value in assuming that something couldn't have happened in the way it clearly did happen. The facts are the facts. We need to adjust our interpretations to fit the facts, not complain that the facts don't fit our beliefs. In-story, the fact is that they haven't taken Savage's body with them so Hawkgirl could kill him. Therefore, there must be a reason why they didn't do so. I'm just trying to offer an answer that will make sense of that. I think it's much more productive to find a solution to a problem than to shoot down solutions and just keep complaining about the problem.
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Rip may not think it's an issue, but if they took past Savage and gave him the absolute, definite, no-backsies Final Death, it would possibly negate Kendra's own timeline, since she has MET him in 2015 still alive, and presumably her current incarnation is as a result of him killing a previous Shayera and this version of Savage hadn't done that yet.

Killing him post 2015, when only Rip's future is at stake, is probably the way they'll go.
 
matthunter said:
Rip may not think it's an issue, but if they took past Savage and gave him the absolute, definite, no-backsies Final Death, it would possibly negate Kendra's own timeline, since she has MET him in 2015 still alive, and presumably her current incarnation is as a result of him killing a previous Shayera and this version of Savage hadn't done that yet.

Killing him post 2015, when only Rip's future is at stake, is probably the way they'll go.
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Good thought. You're probably right, since the show has established how dangerous it can be for the team to disrupt their own past. If Stein's wedding ring disappeared when he stopped his younger self from meeting his wife-to-be, then presumably Kendra preventing her own birth by killing Savage would create that "temporal vortex" catastrophe that Rip warned about, due to the irresolvable paradox.
 
The Waverider must protect flesh and memories, even if it won't protect wedding rings.

Succeed or fail, with a changed timeline, there will be doppelgangers of the team from 2016 who someone has to kill or permanently place in a detention facility so that our legends can take over someone elses lives in a delicately different time line from which they left.
 
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Now I'm imagining them running into Calvin Klein or some other fashion icon, and their clothing begins shifting as they change his perspective and opinion about fashion.
 
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