• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers DC TV Arrow/Flash Universe Crossover Discussion

And in that time, DC went through two more "Crisis" events - and an event called Zero Hour - to try and 'fix' the problems they'd created when they instituted the FIRST Crisis event and finally had things back to some semblance of simple normalcy, only to turn around and decide to abandon that continuity entirely and do yet another full-scale reboot, which is what gave us the New 52/Rebirth universe (and which is slowly starting to be merged with the post-Crisis universe as it existed pre-Flashpoint).

If the FIRST Crisis event had actually worked as intended, it wouldn't have taken DC so many additional 'tries' to come up with something that wasn't a narrative impediment and that didn't require so much 'hoop jumping' in order to keep straight, and they also wouldn't have felt the need to then turn around and almost immediately 'start from scratch' again.
Yeah, I know. I read the comics when they hit the stands.
As I've said fiction is mutable. And sometime course corrections are needed. And sometime you need a new course. That over 70 years of comics are somehow all going to work in a single continuity forever is a pipe dream. Same for a TV show or in this case a group of TV shows.
Frankly I don't think the DCW needs a Crisis. But it's not an impossible task.
 
Yeah, I know. I read the comics when they hit the stands.
As I've said fiction is mutable. And sometime course corrections are needed.

:brickwall:

The only reason "Infinite Crisis", "Zero Hour", and "Final Crisis" happened is because DC :censored: up their own continuity trying to 'fix' it the first time.
 
:brickwall:

The only reason "Infinite Crisis", "Zero Hour", and "Final Crisis" happened is because DC :censored: up their own continuity trying to 'fix' it the first time.
Yes and you're banging your head because???????? They did screw it up. Mostly because they didn't stick to their guns. I sure don't think otherwise. Now "fixes" have become a thing. Sometimes the fixes even make for interesting stories. And isn't that what matters in the end?
 
The headbanging icon was in response to your assertion that "sometimes course corrections are needed", which is not a statement I can agree with.

DC tried to 'course-correct', screwed up, and then had to keep trying to 'course-correct' some more in order to fix the things that they'd screwed up in the first place.

I'm not going to give them credit for their attempts to 'fix' something that they themselves 'broke' even though there were in fact some interesting stories generated as a result of said 'breaking'.
 
A merger is not gonna happen, because either way nothing would functionally change moving forward, Supergirl wouldn't suddenly fly above Star City any more than Flash runs around it now, so there's next to no payoff to it, and some people obviously feel strongly negatively about it.

But I really don't get why you are even comparing this to comics Crisis that tried to manage 50 years(!) of continuity issues across hundreds of titles... have some sense of scale people, merging Earth-1 and 38 is easy peasy compared to that. :p
 
But I really don't get why you are even comparing this to comics Crisis that tried to manage 50 years(!) of continuity issues across hundreds of titles... have some sense of scale people, merging Earth-1 and 38 is easy peasy compared to that. :p

But that's the whole point -- that the only reason people are even talking about merging the universes in the show is because the comics did it once in Crisis. And what I'm saying is that that comparison doesn't make sense, because the show is its own thing and doesn't have to copy what the comics did. Sure, The Flash has hinted at a red-sky "Crisis" in 2024, but that doesn't mean they actually have to do the same kind of "Crisis" that the comics did, or that the shows will even last that long, or that the changing timelines haven't cancelled it out anyway.

And again, the issue is not whether it's possible. A lot of really bad ideas are possible to achieve. What's at issue is whether it's desirable. Sure, they could do it, but why would they? Nothing would be gained. The only answer anyone ever offered before was "to make crossovers easier." Well, bam, Cisco gave Supergirl a pocket breach generator and wiped out that objection in about 30 seconds. So now the goalposts have been moved and the answer is "because interdimensional breaches are contrived." Which is merely a statement of taste, and invites the counterargument that merging two separate universes together is a much, much huger contrivance.
 
Hell, they can merge all the TV show universes in three minutes at the end of one episode. It's not complicated.

There's no reason they would do it that way, though, if they can milk it for four episodes instead. :lol:
 
But that's the whole point -- that the only reason people are even talking about merging the universes in the show is because the comics did it once in Crisis. And what I'm saying is that that comparison doesn't make sense, because the show is its own thing and doesn't have to copy what the comics did. Sure, The Flash has hinted at a red-sky "Crisis" in 2024, but that doesn't mean they actually have to do the same kind of "Crisis" that the comics did, or that the shows will even last that long, or that the changing timelines haven't cancelled it out anyway.

And again, the issue is not whether it's possible. A lot of really bad ideas are possible to achieve. What's at issue is whether it's desirable. Sure, they could do it, but why would they? Nothing would be gained. The only answer anyone ever offered before was "to make crossovers easier." Well, bam, Cisco gave Supergirl a pocket breach generator and wiped out that objection in about 30 seconds. So now the goalposts have been moved and the answer is "because interdimensional breaches are contrived." Which is merely a statement of taste, and invites the counterargument that merging two separate universes together is a much, much huger contrivance.

Earth S , home of Captain marvel (Shazam), was undone in Crisis and NEVER restored. I bet none of y'all noticed. THAT is what we expect of a SCALED down Crisis. Invasion! Is from the comics as well, but scaled way down for use in CCTV.

The two major uses for the merger

1. To form the Justice League...More fundamental to the DC universe than most things

2. Make it easier for recurring characters to transfer between shows when a show ends (I anticipate Arrow ending within a couple of years, for example)

I still want a multiverse (and earth 2 be the TV equivelent of comic earth 3). But let's have the major
Heroes together

As for "how will this reconcile with past continuity"? Flashpoint transgendered Digg!e's child and changed Pied Piper into a hero.yet we are not shaken
 
The headbanging icon was in response to your assertion that "sometimes course corrections are needed", which is not a statement I can agree with.
Oh please. Course corrections happen in fiction all of the time. Star Trek, for one is full of them. It's not that unusual.

DC tried to 'course-correct', screwed up, and then had to keep trying to 'course-correct' some more in order to fix the things that they'd screwed up in the first place.
I dunno. People seem quite fond of the Post Crisis DCU. Seems they were right to make some corrections here and there.

I'm not going to give them credit for their attempts to 'fix' something that they themselves 'broke' even though there were in fact some interesting stories generated as a result of said 'breaking'.
Interesting stories are better than being butt hurt over continuity mishaps.
 
Oh please. Course corrections happen in fiction all of the time. Star Trek, for one is full of them. It's not that unusual.

Absolutely. As I keep saying, stories don't spring instantly into being in their final form; they're created gradually through a lengthy process of trying things out, seeing what works and what doesn't, changing and removing the parts that don't fit, discovering new things along the way, reconsidering and revising everything in hopes of making it better, etc. That process of change, correction, and reconsideration is the only way to create good fiction or art. And any work of series fiction is a work in progress, a continuously unfinished act of creation, so naturally that same process of correction and rethinking has to apply. It's naive to imagine it would even be possible to create a work of fiction that was perfect from the start and never needed correction. Writers are human, and therefore fallible. We have as much need as anyone else to correct our mistakes and learn from experience.
 
The two major uses for the merger

1. To form the Justice League.

You can form a Justice League without a merger.

2. Make it easier for recurring characters to transfer between shows when a show ends (I anticipate Arrow ending within a couple of years, for example)

This comment makes no sense.

As for "how will this reconcile with past continuity"? Flashpoint transgendered Digg!e's child and changed Pied Piper into a hero.yet we are not shaken

Changing the gender of Diggle's child is a far cry from having to retroactively erase/alter 5 seasons of Arrow, 3 seasons of The Flash, 2 seasons of Legends of Tomorrow, 2 seasons of Vixen, and one season of Constantine.[/QUOTE]
 
You can form a Justice League without a merger.
it'd be hard, and make little sense. "Hey here's our super hero group, but this one right here, she is not from our Earth". I am assuming the Justice League will be publicly known.

This comment makes no sense.
Let me explain. Diggle (assuming Arrow is the first to go) could then join the DEA (like O'Brien & Worf joined DS9), and other characters like that moving around.
Changing the gender of Diggle's child is a far cry from having to retroactively erase/alter 5 seasons of Arrow, 3 seasons of The Flash, 2 seasons of Legends of Tomorrow, 2 seasons of Vixen, and one season of Constantine.
Why would you have to erase anything? Just a couple of tweaks in our memory. Like your example of Constantine - was the premise of the show hinging on there being no Superman? Anything about the show would have changed with the presence of Superman or SUpergirl?

Also, I don't think I added here...but the complaining of no aliens on Earth or SUperpowered beings before the accelerator explosion:

We have on Earth 1 the Justice Society, with metahumans (like Obsidian), and aliens like the DOminators.

I forget if the Society was known to the public. I know the Dominators weren't to the general public. But Superman's story is that his planet exploded, and he was the sole survivor. No mention of a war with Daxam or the like (at least to the general public).

So as far as the public is concerned, Superman is a one-off (or two off, now with SUpergirl). And Superman does much of his work in Metropolis/East COast or in Space. SO just alter the line of no aliens on earth to none in the Pacific Northwest.
 
Last edited:
it'd be hard, and make little sense. "Hey here's our super hero group, but this one right here, she is not from our Earth". I am assuming the Justice League will be publicly known.


Let me explain. Diggle (assuming Arrow is the first to go) could then join the DEA (like O'Brien & Worf joined DS9), and other characters like that moving around.

Why would you have to erase anything? Just a couple of tweaks in our memory. Like your example of Constantine - was the premise of the show hinging on there being no Superman? Anything about the show would have changed with the presence of Superman or SUpergirl?

Also, I don't think I added here...but the complaining of no aliens on Earth or SUperpowered beings before the accelerator explosion:

We have on Earth 1 the Justice Society, with metahumans (like Obsidian), and aliens like the DOminators.

I forget if the Society was known to the public. I know the Dominators weren't to the general public. But Superman's story is that his planet exploded, and he was the sole survivor. No mention of a war with Daxam or the like (at least to the general public).

So as far as the public is concerned, Superman is a one-off (or two off, now with SUpergirl). And Superman does much of his work in Metropolis/East COast or in Space. SO just alter the line of no aliens on earth to none in the Pacific Northwest.
I was with you right up until the bit at the end about Superman. I'm assuming you were trying to imply that Superman could exist on Earth-1 pre-merger? If so then your argument about Superman being mainly on the east coast or space, doesn't really hold water. Unless Drumpf is claiming Margaret Thatcher's ghost haunted him during the election campaign in order to help Hillary win the election, the news cycle will be very much focused on the latest exploits of Superman. I don't think Diggle's line from Arrow season two would have been suitable:
'What next, Aliens?'
And to the merger naysayers, as I've said above about Crisis, the reason for the retcons such as Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis was that the different editorial staffs weren't on the same page. If they had been, there would have been no need for course corrections. And I'm pretty certain that Greg Berlanti who 'only' has five shows to handle with at most six years of history could find away to keep his respective staff's on the same page to make a merger work.
 
I was with you right up until the bit at the end about Superman. I'm assuming you were trying to imply that Superman could exist on Earth-1 pre-merger? If so then your argument about Superman being mainly on the east coast or space, doesn't really hold water. Unless Drumpf is claiming Margaret Thatcher's ghost haunted him during the election campaign in order to help Hillary win the election, the news cycle will be very much focused on the latest exploits of Superman. I don't think Diggle's line from Arrow season two would have been suitable:
'What next, Aliens?'
And to the merger naysayers, as I've said above about Crisis, the reason for the retcons such as Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis was that the different editorial staffs weren't on the same page. If they had been, there would have been no need for course corrections. And I'm pretty certain that Greg Berlanti who 'only' has five shows to handle with at most six years of history could find away to keep his respective staff's on the same page to make a merger work.

I am not saying that Superman was existing on Earth 1 pre-merger..just that whatever line that was said that there wasn't a Superman could probably be altered to say that he just didn't involve himself with Star City or Central City...so while he's out there, he doesn't affect those residents' daily lives the way Superman does in Metropolis.

And in regards to Diggle's line... he would have only known Superman as the only alien on Earth. ANd since he was a good guy with super powers, he'd have no reason to interact with him. And we also know the irony of Diggle's statement just a couple years later.

And I think you're right about that assessment. I mean, if Flash & Arrow can have major stories happen without having to go to the other all the time (except for the annual crossover; and thus, not having all the writing staff have to coordinate ALL of their year's scripts), why not with SUpergirl on the same earth?
 
it'd be hard, and make little sense. "Hey here's our super hero group, but this one right here, she is not from our Earth". I am assuming the Justice League will be publicly known.
All that would matter is that she could show up when they need her help, and thanks to the breach generator, she can. It's not like they need to go around explaining who came from where every time they team up. At this point, from the characters' perspectives, her being from another universe isn't all that different from her being in a different city. So changing thing so that she's from a different city really wouldn't make any difference, so there's no point in doing it.

Let me explain. Diggle (assuming Arrow is the first to go) could then join the DEA (like O'Brien & Worf joined DS9), and other characters like that moving around.
With the breach generator they could still do that.
 
In order to answer your question about why trying to merge Earth-1 and Earth-38 would require the erasure of everything we have seen thus far that is set on Earth-1, I actually have to lay out the history of E38 as we've had it explained to us on Supergirl relative to the existence of Superman and aliens, and then compare it to the publicly known history of E1 relative to the way in which Arrow, The Flash, and Legends (and to a lesser degree Constantine and Vixen, which would be effected 'by proxy' because of what trying to merge E1 and E38 would do to the history of the other series set on that Earth).

First, here's the history of E38 as we know it to be:
- At some point prior to the destruction of Krypton, its people (or some of them, anyway) discover the existence of Earth and what its yellow sun will do to a Kryptonian's physiology

- In 1981 A.D., the planet Krypton is facing an ecological and environmental implosion disaster, prompting brothers Jor-El and Zor-El and their wives Lara and Alura to enact a plan to send their children (infant Kal-El and 13-year-old Kara) to Earth in order to save them, linking the guidance systems of the pair's 'life pods' together so that they will arrive on Earth simultaneously. However, shortly after their departure, the shock wave created by Krypton's implosion knocks Kara's pod off-course, causing it to be stranded in an area of space known as the Phantom Zone where time doesn't pass, and leaving Kal-El's pod to continue its course to Earth alone, where he is found by Kansas farmers Jonathan and Martha Kent and raised as their son Clark.

- At some point in the next 24 years, Clark discovers his alien origins and the superpowers that he's granted as a result of his DNA interacting with Earth's yellow sun and encounters Midvale residents Jeremiah and Eliza Danvers, scientists who help him to understand these things. He also publicly reveals himself and his abilities to the world at large as Superman, with the truth of his alien origin eventually becoming public knowledge as well, which results in the United States government creating the Department of Extranormal Operations (DEO), a clandestine/covert organization dedicated to monitoring the presence of aliens on Earth.

- In 2005 A.D., Kara's pod is 'released' from the Phantom Zone by the Coluan supercomputer criminal Indigo (Brainiac-8), who also links the Kryptonian prison ship Fort Rozz (which had been stationed in the Phantom Zone) to her pod, and sent on its way to Earth, with Fort Rozz trailing behind. Kara's pod crashes on Earth, where it's found by Clark/Superman.(now 24). At the same time, Fort Rozz crashes in Nevada. After rescuing Kara from her pod, Clark takes her to the Danverses and asks them to raise her as their daughter.

- Fort Rozz's arrival on Earth catches the attention of the DEO, which downloads its database of alien inmates and uses stealth technology to conceal it. The DEO also begins hunting down the Fort Rozz escapees - and other aliens - in earnest, making them antagonistic towards Superman in the process. Jeremiah Danvers is also forced to join the DEO - which has come for Kara - in exchange for the organization leaving her alone. His involvement with the organization will lead to an encounter with the Martian refugee and sole survivor J'onn J'onzz in the Amazon jungle and result in his apparent death when he risks his own life to save J'onn from being killed by DEO director Hank Henshaw, with J'onn taking on Henshaw's identity and making a promise to Jeremiah to watch over his daughters Alex and Kara.

- At some point between Kal-El's arrival on Earth and the year 2014, other aliens besides the Fort Rozz escapees begin migrating to Earth in secret and begin blending into human society.

- In the year 2015, after nearly 12 years on Earth, 24-year-old Kara Danvers - who works as an assistant at CatCo Worldwide Media - chooses to reveal her alien superpowers (which are the same as Superman's) to the world by saving a commercial airline flight - on which her sister Alex (who is secretly an agent for the DEO and has been for 2 years) is a passenger - that has been sabotaged by a Fort Rozz escapee named Vartox.

Now, a history of Earth-1 relative to public knowledge of individuals with superhuman powers and the existence of aliens, both of which are heavily tied in with Superman's existence and presence on Earth-38 (as outlined above):
- At some point before World War II, the United States government becomes privately aware of the existence of "Metahumans" - individuals with superhuman abilities - and organizes some of said individuals into a team known as the Justice Society of America, although the general public remains unaware of this fact, or of the factual existence of Metahumans as anything more than rumor and fantasy.

- During World War II, the Japanese create a "supersoldier serum" (possibly motivated by private knowledge of the existence of the Justice Society) known as Mirakuru.

- In 2012 A.D., Slade Wilson, a former Australian Secret Intelligence Service member and former mentor and friend to Oliver Queen during his time stranded on the island Lian Yu (where a submarine containing the Mirakuru had run aground during World War II) attacks Starling City with an army of Mirakuru-enhanced soldiers, marking the first public appearance of individuals with superhuman abilities.

One year later, in 2013 A.D.. scientist Harrison Wells, the owner of S.T.A.R. Labs (actually a Metahuman from the future named Eobard Thawne who took on Wells' physical appearance after a chance encounter with him and his fiance, Tess Morgan), creates a particle accelerator and publicly tests it, only for things to go horribly awry (intentionally, as it is later learned), resulting in numerous individuals being granted superhuman abilities, among them being Central City CSI Barry Allen (who witnessed Thawne murder his mother in 2000 A.D. and spent the next 13 years trying to find evidence of the existence of superhuman/supernatural phenomena), who begins a public superhero career as The Flash (a name given to him by his 'foster sister' and crush Iris West). It is only after the particle accelerator incident that the term "Metahuman" comes into general public use and general knowledge of the existence of such individuals becomes publicly acknowledged, in spite of Slade Wilson and his superhuman army having attacked Starling City one year earlier.

- In 2016 A.D., Time Master Rip Hunter recruits several individuals - scientist Ray Palmer, Metahuman Martin Stein and his new 'partner' Jefferson Jackson, resurrected assassin turned vigilante Sara Lance, barista (and reincarnated Egyptian princess) Kendra Saunders and her 'fated' lover, Carter Hall (himself a reincarnated Egyptian palace guard), and criminals Leonard Snart and Mick Rory - to help him travel throughout history and stop future tyrant Vandal Savage before he conquers the Earth in the year 2166 and kills Rip's wife, Miranda, and their son, Jonas, prompting Rip, who is a member of a group known as the Time Masters, to go rogue since the rest of the Time Masters refuse to do anything about Savage's tyranny given that they possess knowledge about the future - specifically an invasion of Earth from an alien race known as the Thanagarians, which is repelled by a Savage-controlled Earth population. Rip and his team eventually kill Savage and put an end to the corrupt existence of the Time Masters while also managing to prevent the Thanargian invasion from ever happening.

Later that same year, a race of aliens known as the Dominators - who have secretly been monitoring and studying the existence of Metahumans for hundreds of years and first appeared on Earth in the year 1951 (a fact that was covered up by the United States government) - launch a full-scale invasion of Earth, leading to the general public discovering the existence of extraterrestrial life "the hard way" after the President of the United States is publicly disintegrated by the Dominators.

***

Do you not see why it would not be as simple to 'rewrite' the history of Earth-1 in order to include Superman's existence, which is what would have to happen if you were to merge Earth-1 and Earth-38 together, now?

You can't 'retcon' things to say that Superman's been in existence - and publicly known - for nearly 2 decades by the time The Flash starts without fundamentally altering the way that series plays itself out through its first two seasons, nor can you do so without fundamentally altering the way that Season 2 of Arrow plays out since Oliver and his allies would've reacted far differently to having to face off against Slade and his Mirakuru-enhanced army if the existence of someone with superhuman powers - namely Superman - had been publicly acknowledged.

Superman's existence would also fundamentally alter the way that the Invasion crossover event occurs, specifically with regards to Team Arrow's involvement in it, if Superman's existence and alien origins were publicly known.

There's also the fact that the only reason the Time Masters behave as they do during the first season of Legends of Tomorrow is because of extraterrestrial threat posed by the Thanagarians, meaning that the existence of - and public knowledge about - Superman and alien life would have made the actions they took in refusing to stop Savage on account of his conquering of Earth being the only thing capable of stopping a Thanagarian invasion force completely unnecessary, which in turn would affect the way that Season 2 of Legends has played itself out since the fact that the Time Masters refused to deal with Savage because of the role he would eventually play in saving Earth from invasion is what ultimately leads to their own destruction and results in the Legends effectively replacing them as 'time cops'.
 
Last edited:
And to the merger naysayers, as I've said above about Crisis, the reason for the retcons such as Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis was that the different editorial staffs weren't on the same page. If they had been, there would have been no need for course corrections. And I'm pretty certain that Greg Berlanti who 'only' has five shows to handle with at most six years of history could find away to keep his respective staff's on the same page to make a merger work.

That's an easy assumption for an armchair quarterback to make, based on nothing more than guesswork about a job you've never had to do. Keeping multiple shows in continuity with each other at all is an enormous challenge; there's no sense in making that challenge exponentially harder by rebooting the whole history, unless there were a really, really, really good story reason why it would make the shows better. And nobody has been able to offer a remotely convincing reason why it would do that.
 
That's an easy assumption for an armchair quarterback to make, based on nothing more than guesswork about a job you've never had to do. Keeping multiple shows in continuity with each other at all is an enormous challenge; there's no sense in making that challenge exponentially harder by rebooting the whole history, unless there were a really, really, really good story reason why it would make the shows better. And nobody has been able to offer a remotely convincing reason why it would do that.
You keep saying it's "rebooting the whole history" -- can you write a short synopsis showing what would be different? Because I don't see what major changes would happen. A couple of throwaway lines and a few good gags would have to be ignored... but no different (in impact) than Star Trek TOS inconsistencies
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top