DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

[Jax]

Despite being a fan of MOS. BVS, WW and the Snyder JL - I still can't help the original plan was flawed. The jump from MOS to BVS was too quick. Do your introduction movies of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman movies and then jump into BVS.

The DCEU was screwed as soon as WB interfered in BVS, releasing a theatrical version that cut out key scenes. It began a track record of WB constantly changing plans whenever they felt a stiff breeze of doubt blow past their way.

Suicide Squad was edited together so poorly that wasn't there a scene where a main character left and randomly re-appeared back in without explanation because they cut out the scene of him returning to the group during the bar scene.

Taking advantage of Snyder's family tragedy to get Whedon in to turn justice League into a completely different movie that was probably put together by Nickelodeon AI was a whole low.

The damage was done at that point, despite the success of Aquaman. Covid was the final of a thousand nails in the coffin when WW84 & Suicide Squad were released during lockdown so about 5 people saw them in the cinema.

WB should of cancelled the project then but they went on for no good reason. WB should forget about multiverse and just focus on there big name properties as self contained universes.

 

[DigificWriter]

Do your introduction movies of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman movies and then jump into BVS

No.

Stop trying to push the falsehood that every Shared Universe has to be structured like the MCU.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

No.

Stop trying to push the falsehood that every Shared Universe has to be structured like the MCU.

But introductions DO make more sense than starting at the end, no?
Starting the universe with death of Superman and Dark Knight Returns is beyond me.

Don't copy Marvel. But...don't do what WB did, either.

 

[Dee1891]

Do you value your own personal opinion that much over the majority of mainstream movie goers and critics?

That is the line of thought that leads to the Snyder Cult in their tiny echo chambers. Not saying that you're part of that, but it's always good to be aware and consider all perspectives. Including the metrics of how the film was received with the public.

Remember this original discussion was about how the failed DCEU Superman was received by audiences. That's why discussing our own individual opinions is essentially irrelevant here. The studio had to go with what was the most financial viable move from a business perspective when they scrapped Cavill's version and are now rebooting fresh.

Why do people keep making general comments on how the public feels about these comic book movies, when it is impossible for any one person to know the opinion of every single movie goer?


Considering that the MCU didn't follow its rule of introduction with Black Panther, Spider-Man, Black Widow and Hawkeye, why was the DCEU expected to do so?

 

[Supervisor 194]

I always got the sense that Snyder was only personally interested in super-hero comics like Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns, comics which deconstructed the characters. I think part of his mistake was trying to tell that kind of story before giving the audience enough reason to care about the characters.

Watchmen and DKR worked because they played off of decades of affection and good will towards the characters in playing against type. I think Snyder assumed the audience would go along with him despite not putting in the groundwork for that kind of story. That for me is one of the reasons his take fell flat---he was asking the audience to go places that hadn't been earned yet, at least in my opinion.

 

[DigificWriter]

But introductions DO make more sense than starting at the end, no?

No.

BvS, despite its title and subtitle, is first and foremost a direct sequel to Man of Steel that also happens to serve as setup for a team story, which is just as valid an approach as anything that Marvel Studios did in 'Phase 1' of the MCU.

 

[Skywalker]

Solo films for Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, then a team-up between them where Superman dies. Then Aquaman and Flash have their own solo origin movies, ending with each being recruited by one of Wonder Woman or Batman. Then do Justice League where Cyborg is introduced and Superman is revived. Move forward from there.

The blueprint was already there, but WB got greedy and tried to skip ahead.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Despite being a fan of MOS. BVS, WW and the Snyder JL - I still can't help the original plan was flawed. The jump from MOS to BVS was too quick. Do your introduction movies of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman movies and then jump into BVS.

One the one hand, WB pushed Snyder into including Batman for MOS 2. Because they wanted that crossover movie they had been fiending for since Batman Begins and Superman Returns.

For Snyder’s part, he followed the trend of making a Justice League ensemble in Superman’s absence. The thinking behind this idea in comics and animation, is that Supes would never agree to a team dynamic because he feels he doesn’t need one. With Superman being proven wrong by the abilitiy of the ensemble.

The DCEU was screwed as soon as WB interfered in BVS, releasing a theatrical version that cut out key scenes. It began a track record of WB constantly changing plans whenever they felt a stiff breeze of doubt blow past their way.

Suicide Squad was edited together so poorly that wasn't there a scene where a main character left and randomly re-appeared back in without explanation because they cut out the scene of him returning to the group during the bar scene.

Taking advantage of Snyder's family tragedy to get Whedon in to turn justice League into a completely different movie that was probably put together by Nickelodeon AI was a whole low.

The damage was done at that point, despite the success of Aquaman. Covid was the final of a thousand nails in the coffin when WW84 & Suicide Squad were released during lockdown so about 5 people saw them in the cinema.

WB should have cancelled the project then but they went on for no good reason. WB should forget about multiverse and just focus on there big name properties as self contained universes.

I agree wholeheartedly.

While Snyder wasn’t perfect and his planned trilogy for Superman solo of movies was highkacked to compete with the MCU. At least he had a vision and a roadmap. All it needed was refinement.

MOS
BvS
SS (the Ayer Cut we didn’t see)
WW
JL Part 1/ ZSJL
Aquaman

JL Part 2 - Darkseid overthrown

Flashpoint - More in line with the comic. With Barry partnering with Jeffrey Dean Morgan’s Thomas Wayne Batman. Diana’s and Arthur’s war risking to tear the world apart.

Man of Steel 2 - with Supergirl and Brainiac
Batfleck solo - with Deathstroke
Green Lantern - John Stewart

WB could’ve hired a new executive producer to steward the franchise, if they had issues with Snyder. Instead they left the IP rudderless for years.

 

[JD]

Do you value your own personal opinion that much over the majority of mainstream movie goers and critics?

Yes, I do. There are a ton of movies I absolutely love that had horrible reviews and bombed at the box office.

I've seen a few people mention Zack Snyder being fired from Justice League, but that's not what happened, he chose to stop down from the movie after his daughter committed suicide. Yes, WB did take advantage of the situation bring in Whedon to work on JL, but if his daughter hadn't done what she did, there's pretty good chance Snyder would have been able to finish JL.

 

[Dee1891]

Yes, I do. There are a ton of movies I absolutely love that had horrible reviews and bombed at the box office.

I've seen a few people mention Zack Snyder being fired from Justice League, but that's not what happened, he chose to stop down from the movie after his daughter committed suicide. Yes, WB did take advantage of the situation bring in Whedon to work on JL, but if his daughter hadn't done what she did, there's pretty good chance Snyder would have been able to finish JL.

Or . . . Whedon and Warner Brothers could have followed Snyder's original plans for the film, instead of butchering them.

I always got the sense that Snyder was only personally interested in super-hero comics like Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns, comics which deconstructed the characters. I think part of his mistake was trying to tell that kind of story before giving the audience enough reason to care about the characters.

I don't understand this comment. I didn't realize it was against the rules to deconstruct familiar characters. And what did you mean by giving the audience enough reason to care about the characters? I really didn't understand that comment.


You know what? Fuck it. People can bitch and moan about Snyder's work with the DCEU until the cows come home. I know that I loved his DC films and no one can convince me differently. If you want to continue bitching about them . . . fine. And having Indy fight Nazi again, for the third time, did not help.

 

[DigificWriter]

Solo films for Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, then a team-up between them where Superman dies. Then Aquaman and Flash have their own solo origin movies, ending with each being recruited by one of Wonder Woman or Batman. Then do Justice League where Cyborg is introduced and Superman is revived. Move forward from there.

The blueprint was already there, but WB got greedy and tried to skip ahead.

The MoSSCU didn't need a blueprint to follow because there's nothing wrong with the approach that WB took in launching and crafting it.

The MCU, for all of the success it has had, is actually the worst thing that could have happened when it comes to the Comic Book Film genre because its success has falsely convinced people that it somehow represents the 'end all/be all' in terms of crafting Shared Continuity Universes.

Re: Snyder and Justice League, I've yet to see anybody using the theatrical cut of the film as an example of WB's 'course correction' explain why none of the films that followed it deviated from the overall general tone and aesthetic established by MoS and BvS, or why WB never demanded that Aquaman and The Flash be revised so that they were narratively compatible with the theatrical cut of JL.

 

[TerryTrek]

Why do people keep making general comments on how the public feels about these comic book movies, when it is impossible for any one person to know the opinion of every single movie goer?

We're just talking about the majority movie goers; based on box office, word of mouth, cinemascore, audience reactions, week to week holds,etc Valued metrics by the studios and industry. For films of this scale and budget, they need to draw in the widest net possible to be profitable ventures.

No, I just think it's a category error to assume the two are competing answers to the same question. They're apples and oranges.

As I've already mentioned, many films that flopped on their initial release are now beloved and regarded as classics. If you think the initial reaction of critics is an absolute truth, you don't know your film history. All opinion is subjective, whether it's one person's or a million's, and thus all opinion is subject to reassessment. There have been films I hated the first time I watched and liked when I later revisited them, and vice versa. And audiences and critics can rethink their initial reactions too.

You have "Trek" in your username; perhaps you've forgotten that Star Trek was a ratings failure in its initial run and did not become a cult phenomenon until its years in syndicated reruns after its cancellation. Or that Deep Space Nine was always critically acclaimed but never as popular as its contemporary Trek shows. These things are not laws of physics. They're subjective and they can change.

How hypocritical. You're citing your own personal animus against Cavill as if it were the universal reaction of the audience. And I'm telling you as another member of that same audience that my problem with the DCEU Superman was not about Henry Cavill, but about Zack Snyder and the editors and executives who sabotaged Cavill's creation of the character. Your insistence on blaming the actor exclusively for the failure of the character to catch on is your opinion. You are only one person, and your vote counts no more than mine does. So don't pretend you speak for the majority. Have the guts to admit your opinion is your opinion, as I do with mine, instead of hiding behind the logical fallacy of the appeal to the majority.

Well no, it's not my opinion. I'm going by the reaction based on box office, WOM, etc. The numbers. That's what WB ultimately cared about when they decided not to give Cavill a solo MOS 2, or to waste money on a new contract for him. They knew his Superman just didn't resonate with majority movie-goers enough to justify the investment.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Re: Snyder and Justice League, I've yet to see anybody using the theatrical cut of the film as an example of WB's 'course correction' explain why none of the films that followed it deviated from the overall general tone and aesthetic established by MoS and BvS, or why WB never demanded that Aquaman and The Flash be revised so that they were narratively compatible with the theatrical cut of JL.

Ironic that you have "writer" in your name yet need convincing that WB hired the guy who literally made The Avengers to change the script to completely alter the tone and lighten the direction. The joke with a following movie, Shazam, was that it was the best Marvel movie that WB made. Suicide Squad 2 (another Marvel hire) was Guardians of the Galaxy humour and dialogue (again, all in the writing) under a rated R disguise.

 

[DigificWriter]

Ironic that you have "writer" in your name yet need convincing that WB hired the guy who literally made The Avengers to change the script to completely alter the tone and lighten the direction. The joke with a following movie, Shazam, was that it was the best Marvel movie that WB made. Suicide Squad 2 (another Marvel hire) was Guardians of the Galaxy humour and dialogue (again, all in the writing) under a rated R disguise.

Not buying into an idea that is directly contradicted by what I can see with my own eyes has nothing to do with my understanding of writing.

For all of the claims from 'insiders' and fans that the theatrical cut of Justice League marked some kind of seismic shift in tone and aesthetic from MoS and BvS, the reality is that, as released, none of the subsequent films actually demonstrate any such shift, and that two of said films actually directly ignore any storyline changes that the theatrical cut of JL made.

 

[Anwar]

The MoSSCU didn't need a blueprint to follow because there's nothing wrong with the approach that WB took in launching and crafting it.

The MCU, for all of the success it has had, is actually the worst thing that could have happened when it comes to the Comic Book Film genre because its success has falsely convinced people that it somehow represents the 'end all/be all' in terms of crafting Shared Continuity Universes.

But it's not like Kevin Feige or anyone at Disney said "This is the model we want everyone to follow", they just did their own thing and others decided on their own to copy it. It's not fair to blame the MCU for doing well and others not being inventive.

 

[DigificWriter]

It's not fair to blame the MCU for doing well and others not being inventive.

It is when you're not really a fan of the MCU overall and don't buy into the notion that it established any kind of precedent for how to craft a Shared Continuity Universe.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Do you value your own personal opinion that much over the majority of mainstream movie goers and critics?

Why wouldn't he? The so-called "mainstream movie goers" also trotted into crap such as The Fast and the Furious movies, and many of the cartoons found in the franchise known as the MCU. The so-called "mainstream movie goer" as you're defining them are not wise arbiters of taste.

That is the line of thought that leads to the Snyder Cult in their tiny echo chambers.

As opposed to those who skip right into line with whatever an alleged "majority" says what kind of entertainment you should like and support.

Remember this original discussion was about how the failed DCEU Superman was received by audiences. That's why discussing our own individual opinions is essentially irrelevant here. The studio had to go with what was the most financial viable move from a business perspective when they scrapped Cavill's version and are now rebooting fresh.

If they truly "scrapped" Cavill's version, Dawn of Justice would not have been greenlit. You have a familiar problem with the DCEU Superman, yet fans wanted Cavill to return, and were excited when he said he was going to do just that in the period leading up to Black Adam's release.

This reboot has no guarantees at all, but if its "creators" are still stuck on the Salkind's view of the character, they will learn--as Singer did with the disaster that was Superman Returns--that modern audiences do not want to see that kind of Superman.

You keep saying that Warner Bros. 'course corrected' after BvS, but the reality of the MoSSCU as it has unfolded doesn't support that claim, as the tone and general aesthetic established by MoS and BvS has persisted for the franchise's duration so far.

Obviously. There's no evidence for this alleged "course correction" since the very next film--Wonder Woman was clearly produced in the tone and spirit of its predecessor as intended. Further, if a "course correction" was required, it was in the wake of the sickening Whedon's MCU-ized Justice League--the very reason WB listened to the fans and greenlit Snyder's Justice League. It was clear what direction audiences desired, and it was not a that laid out by comedic cartoons.

Or . . . Whedon and Warner Brothers could have followed Snyder's original plans for the film, instead of butchering them.

WB needed to learn a valuable lesson: copy+pasting kiddie material into a serious story never produces great results.

You know what? Fuck it. People can bitch and moan about Snyder's work with the DCEU until the cows come home. I know that I loved his DC films and no one can convince me differently. If you want to continue bitching about them . . . fine. And having Indy fight Nazi again, for the third time, did not help.

Agreed. That kind of whining reminds me of certain YouTube personalities who--for some unimaginable reason--beg for films to return to the structure and approach set during their precious 1980s, where they believe anyone is still interested in seeing Die Hard, Back to the Future, any Schwarzenegger and Stallone film, the worst of the Bond movies (i.e. every Moore film with the exception of For Your Eyes Only) and anything involving paramilitary "heroes" blow up "A-rabs".

Thankfully, the world moved on from that.

 

[DigificWriter]

if a "course correction" was required, it was in the wake of Whedon's MCU-ized Justice League

WB claimed that the theatrical cut of JL was the 'official' version publicly, yet didn't ask James Wan and the myriad writers of The Flash to change things to fit the story of said version of JL and whatever changes Whedon made to it, but nobody actually wants to address this fact because it greatly undercuts the argument that WB fired Snyder and 'changed course' during the production of JL.

Said argument is also undercut by the fact that Shazam, BoP, WW84, The Suicide Squad, and Black Adam all far more closely align, tonally, aestheticly, and structurally, with Aquaman (which, as mentioned, completely ignores any changes to JL's story and tone that Whedon made) than with the theatrical cut of JL, which is a fact that people also don't want to address.

 

[Anwar]

It is when you're not really a fan of the MCU overall and don't buy into the notion that it established any kind of precedent for how to craft a Shared Continuity Universe.

But it's not like Disney/Feige did this on purpose with the intention of having everyone ape them, they just had an idea and did it.

Personally, I would have liked for Snyder's movies to continue but I think right from the start it wasn't executed as well as it could have been and maybe he needed someone to help him in the process.

I dunno, what would we have gotten if Snyder and James Gunn had been working together from Day One?

 

[theenglish]

General audiences thought it was a terrible movie. Obviously there are small groups that like it, but WB consider them irrelevant when the film didn't meet expectations with mainstream moviegoers.

70% 2nd week drop is really bad. BvS had poor Word of Mouth. It didn't work with Critics as well. All the measurable metrics for it weren't where WB expected for such a major investment, and therefore they had to course correct from then on out.

So how does one judge quality for a film of this budget and scale if not for these measurable metrics, valued by studios and the industry?

The WB itself though is responsible for that movie. They pushed the concept of birthing an entire universe rather than letting it naturally develop; forced Batman into the movie when the character hadn't even been introduced yet; and then proceeded to edit the hell out of what Snyder had intended creating a jumbled mess of a story. Then they tried to course correct without having any clue what makes super-hero films special in the first place.