DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

[Markonian]

Yes. Race baiting. That's all this is. And yes, there is a reason a person of color can't play Superman. The character is white, and the only reason to do it is race baiting. But your own response proves the point. You want to enjoy the reaction to the race baiting.

And hate to break it to you, but yes, Ghostbusters and Fantastic Four failed in part because of those decisions. They had strikes against them.
Maybe we should recast Black Panther with a white actor. Then you can watch the internet burn.

Superman is a non-Human extraterrestrial. He doesn’t have to be white. He’s a fictional character that can be amended as needed. It would be like saying the next Bond can’t be black or a woman.

Funny enough, I came across this post yesterday:
https://twitter.com/jonathanbelle/status/1037056125986906112?s=21

The difference to Black Panther is, that’s a story set in Africa. The main character descends from a line of native royals in an isolationist country. He has to be black unless that background is changed.

 

[urbandefault]

So, I hear Chris Evans will be looking for a gig ...

 

[Noname Given]

So, I hear Chris Evans will be looking for a gig ...

Yeah, in the same way Robert Downey Jr. was talking about right after "Iron Man 3"

 

[Christopher]

Superman is a non-Human extraterrestrial. He doesn’t have to be white. He’s a fictional character that can be amended as needed. It would be like saying the next Bond can’t be black or a woman.

Still, it would certainly change the narrative in terms of how the American public reacted to Superman. There would be a large segment of the populace that hated and feared him for being a black man with superpowers, and he might be much more at odds with the police. (This sort of thing has already been explored with Milestone's Icon, for example, and of course with Black Lightning on TV.)

Hmm... Part of the reason Lex Luthor hates Superman is because he resents it that an alien is capable of achieving things that, in his view, diminish human worth by contrast. So there's a racial element there already. Maybe this would just make it more overt.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Yeah, while you could cast a black actor as Superman, the story and character would immediately change because of it. Doesn't mean you couldn't come up with something to work around it, but it wouldn't be the same Superman, at least not the one everybody is clamoring for after the brooding and morally confused Snyder version.

I'm a bit reminded of Marc Bernardin's reasoning on why Batman needs to be white, and that is that the character is inherently about Old Money.

Now, Bond, though, could easily be black. While his family history is deeply British/Swiss, black people have been around in Great Britain (and parts of Continental Europe) since at least the Middle Ages. So, yes, making Bond black is no problem at all. Making him a woman is another story, as the character is inherently about male sexuality, so changing the gender would be again changing the character.
Mind you, there's nothing speaking against a female super-spy heading her own movie franchise, and there have been, to my knowledge, at least three attempts to spin off popular female spies from Bond movies into their own movies, namely Anya Amasova from "The Spy Who Loved Me", Wai Lin from "Tomorrow Never Dies", and Jinx from "Die Another Day". Not to mention several non-Bond-related female super spies to head their own movies, like Angelina Jolie's "Salt".

 

[Professor Zoom]

Yeah, while you could cast a black actor as Superman, the story and character would immediately change because of it. Doesn't mean you couldn't come up with something to work around it, but it wouldn't be the same Superman, at least not the one everybody is clamoring for after the brooding and morally confused Snyder version.

I don't know if the story per se would change, all of the elements could remain, but, I think the meaning of the story would change. Which I think is interesting--and I think using stories that reflect the era in which we are in, rather than when the story/character was created, is important. It's why we don't perform Shakespeare the exact way as it was done centuries ago. We find new things and new meanings that talk about now.

That said, WB would never do it... at least not in the next few decades. As much as people want to believe it, Hollywood is conservative by nature, they are a business first. There would be panic in the halls: "how are we going to have synergy with all of the games and toys and comics and t-shirts!? How will we sell the brand!? Oh, and yeah, the internet."

I'm a bit reminded of Marc Bernardin's reasoning on why Batman needs to be white, and that is that the character is inherently about Old Money.

Bats is one of the few comic book characters who I would argue has to be white because of this very reason. He comes from Old Entitled Money. In some ways he's rebelling against that, and in other ways he's embracing it (Batman: rather than getting therapy and donating billions to help solve the problems, I, ALONE, will solve it.)

Now, Bond, though, could easily be black. While his family history is deeply British/Swiss, black people have been around in Great Britain (and parts of Continental Europe) since at least the Middle Ages. So, yes, making Bond black is no problem at all. Making him a woman is another story, as the character is inherently about male sexuality, so changing the gender would be again changing the character.

I would also agree with this. As far as movie Bond, for the most part, his family history hasn't played much into the franchise, save for 2 or 3 movies--ugh, Spectre-- it might be different for the books.

Mind you, there's nothing speaking against a female super-spy heading her own movie franchise, and there have been, to my knowledge, at least three attempts to spin off popular female spies from Bond movies into their own movies, namely Anya Amasova from "The Spy Who Loved Me", Wai Lin from "Tomorrow Never Dies", and Jinx from "Die Another Day". Not to mention several non-Bond-related female super spies to head their own movies, like Angelina Jolie's "Salt".

I am sort of surprised, and not, that Salt didn't do more. I think it's a really fine thriller and Jolie feels credible as an action star. But, I also suspect, she wasn't super interested in pursuing it, as she has other ambitions than being an action star.

 

[dahj]

Superman is a white guy.

Until he isn't.

Deal with it.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, while you could cast a black actor as Superman, the story and character would immediately change because of it. Doesn't mean you couldn't come up with something to work around it, but it wouldn't be the same Superman, at least not the one everybody is clamoring for after the brooding and morally confused Snyder version.

Well, he could be the same Superman, as a person. It's just that the rest of the country would see him differently, relate to him differently, even if he were unchanged. He'd have different challenges to contend with, a harder time being trusted. Which is essentially what Snyder was going for in BvS, though he handled it with staggering ineptitude.

I'm a bit reminded of Marc Bernardin's reasoning on why Batman needs to be white, and that is that the character is inherently about Old Money.

That's flawed reasoning on several levels. For one thing, there have been black millionaires as far back as the mid-1800s. They were rare, but they existed. (If nothing else, being descended from a rich black family is less implausible than being descended from humanoid aliens or molded from clay by an Amazon queen.) For another thing, Bruce could easily be biracial -- maybe a rich white Thomas Wayne married a black Martha Kane. Or he could be adopted -- it would certainly explain his own habit of adopting youthful wards.

For that matter, the idea that the Waynes are "Old Money" is a relatively recent invention -- I think it dates from the '80s and the post-Crisis reboot. In the pre-Crisis continuity, Thomas Wayne was a self-made millionaire due to his medical practice and wise investments (according to the 1956 story "The First Batman," which retconned Wayne's murder as a hit arranged by gangster Lew Moxon). So it's hardly essential to the Batman story for the Wayne fortune to go back generations.

 

[The Realist]

It would be interesting to see a "Jane Bond" who was literally a gender-flipped version of James-- a female character just as promiscuous and sexually-driven, whose immediate and reflexive default mode in any encounter with the opposite gender is seduction.

Sordid male fantasy, or liberating gender parity? It would certainly represent a new kind of movie heroine, in any case.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

I don't know if the story per se would change, all of the elements could remain, but, I think the meaning of the story would change. Which I think is interesting--and I think using stories that reflect the era in which we are in, rather than when the story/character was created, is important. It's why we don't perform Shakespeare the exact way as it was done centuries ago. We find new things and new meanings that talk about now.

Yeah, but again, the audience obviously wants a more traditional Superman, as the bad reactions to the Snyder movies and the positive reactions to JL's Superman (though not so much the movie as a whole) have shown. Also, as @Christopher has brought up, other black heroes do exist. I'd love to see a movie adaptation of Icon. Or a TV show of Icon. Or a new comic series for Icon. Or reprints of the original Icon book. What I'm saying is, GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER, DC AND MILESTONE, I WANT ME SOME ICON!!!

As far as how much it would change the character himself, @Christopher mentioned the public's reaction to a black Superman as opposed to a white Superman. There's also him growing up in small-town Kansas. Now, as a German, I can't say I have much experience on a black kid growing up in rural Kansas, but it would be my guess it would be a very different experience from white kid.

That said, WB would never do it... at least not in the next few decades. As much as people want to believe it, Hollywood is conservative by nature, they are a business first. There would be panic in the halls: "how are we going to have synergy with all of the games and toys and comics and t-shirts!? How will we sell the brand!? Oh, and yeah, the internet."

There's also the problem with the Chinese market. I've read reports about racism against black people being far more wide-spread in China. To get more than 100 million at the Chinese Box Office for Black Panther, Disney had to modify the marketing, emphasizing the mask in the visual marketing in order to hide the character's ethnicity. The Chinese market is also the main reason why homosexuals don't show up openly in big blockbusters, as the Chinese censors won't allow movies adressing homosexuality into their market.

Bats is one of the few comic book characters who I would argue has to be white because of this very reason. He comes from Old Entitled Money. In some ways he's rebelling against that, and in other ways he's embracing it (Batman: rather than getting therapy and donating billions to help solve the problems, I, ALONE, will solve it.)

Though it might be possible to have Batman be bi-racial, with white Old Money Thomas Wayne having married a black Martha (though the Batwoman fans who demand the character be Jewish would cry bloody murder on that one).

I would also agree with this. As far as movie Bond, for the most part, his family history hasn't played much into the franchise, save for 2 or 3 movies--ugh, Spectre-- it might be different for the books.

The books didn't adress his family history much beyond the small bit in "On Her Majesty's Secret Service", but as I stated, Bond's family history isn't at all a hindrance in making Bond black, as there has been a black minority in Great Britain for about a millennium.

I am sort of surprised, and not, that Salt didn't do more. I think it's a really fine thriller and Jolie feels credible as an action star. But, I also suspect, she wasn't super interested in pursuing it, as she has other ambitions than being an action star.

"Salt" wasn't that profitable for the studio, but I think that has more to do with the plot being a bit derivative of the Jason Bourne movies than with Jolie. A sequel with a more original plot (or a more classic spy-fi plot á la classic Bond) would have done better, I guess.
When it comes to box office, female spies haven't had much success even lately, although it might be a problem that a lot of them ("Spy", "The Spy Who Dumped Me") have been played for laughs or been more drama than action thriller ("Red Sparrow". Let's hope for the "Black WIdow" movie.

 

[DigificWriter]

I've made my thoughts clear - with supporting facts - on this whole issue of whether or not the DCEU's Superman is an accurate representation of the character from the comics and therefore will not beat that horse into the ground, but I'm not entirely convinced, at this point, that there's actually anything to The Hollywood Reporter's story regarding Cavill's departure in spite of their usually impeccable reputation and stringent guidelines regarding the posting of information.

 

[Kirk Prime]

What part of Superman’s story requires him to be white?

None.

What part of a king of a secretive African nation that has existed for centuries that was never conquered by Europeans requires him to be black?

All of it.

Wrong. None of that requires Black Panther to be black. There are white people in Africa. As for what requires Superman to be white--the creators created him that way. The only reason to make him anything else is to race bait so that the PC police can get outraged and call anyone who objects to this stupidity a racist, despite the reality that such a stunt is racist by itself.

Superman is a non-Human extraterrestrial. He doesn’t have to be white. He’s a fictional character that can be amended as needed. It would be like saying the next Bond can’t be black or a woman.

Superman looks like a white human male. The creators made him that way--by choice. By your logic, Black Panther can also be amended as needed--to a white person. So can Black Lightning, John Stewart, and Static. Black Panther can still be white and check all the boxes. Isolationist country in Africa. There are white people there.

And yes, making James Bond a woman or a person of color is the exact same thing--just as dumb, just as racist.

As for dealing with a black character in the DC world, if the ones available are not good enough, writers can be free to create one.

It is racist to say that black fictional characters can't be successful without changing a classic white character's race to make that happen.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Yeah, but again, the audience obviously wants a more traditional Superman, as the bad reactions to the Snyder movies and the positive reactions to JL's Superman (though not so much the movie as a whole) have shown.

Oh, sure. I don't disagree with that at all. Basically, everyone wants more of the thing that they want. (Even if they will complain that it's the "same thing," see all of the arguments about The Force Awakens... and then when they do something different, see all the tantrums about The Last Jedi.

It's why they won't go with a live action Miles Morales movie, or why they chose Hal Jordan for the Green Lantern movie--even though John Stewart had been in the cartoons for how many years and had a base of support--and arguably more interesting that Hal--but, that's a personal opinion.

Big studios will always choose the less risk averse option.

As far as how much it would change the character himself, @Christopher mentioned the public's reaction to a black Superman as opposed to a white Superman. There's also him growing up in small-town Kansas. Now, as a German, I can't say I have much experience on a black kid growing up in rural Kansas, but it would be my guess it would be a very different experience from white kid.

Yep. All of those are true. And--to me--more interesting than the same thing over and over. But, given a white Superman--why do people suddenly TRUST this guy? I'm a little partial to Lex's point of view. Here comes this super powered being out of nowhere and suddenly people accept him? Because he's white? That's a fucked up thing too. And something that would be interesting to explore.

Briefly touching on the black kid growing up in Kansas, especially rural Kansas, yeah, he would be an outsider, struggling to fit in... almost like he's an alien trying to fit in on Earth...

Obviously, I know I'm an outlier....

 

[Professor Zoom]

Wrong. None of that requires Black Panther to be black. There are white people in Africa.

You mean the ones that came from Europe? Yeah, because they would most likely be Kings of an super advanced, super secretive country that had never been invaded. But, sure, go on with that line of thinking... there are white people who live in Africa, so, yeah, Black Panther's story isn't inherently about a black man...

lol.

As for what requires Superman to be white--the creators created him that way. The only reason to make him anything else is to race bait so that the PC police can get outraged and call anyone who objects to this stupidity a racist, despite the reality that such a stunt is racist by itself.

You mean two Jewish kids from Cleveland created a white character in a period of time that Jews themselves were looked down upon, even in America? A period of time that Jews would change their names so they would sound less foreign and be more acceptable to White America?

Yeah, gosh, I don't know why they would make him white...

 

[The Realist]

I've made my thoughts clear - with supporting facts - on this whole issue of whether or not the DCEU's Superman is an accurate representation of the character from the comics

Actually, you have supported your unprovable opinion with subjective perceptions. Which is all any of us can do in such a discussion, but it's nice to know the difference.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, but again, the audience obviously wants a more traditional Superman, as the bad reactions to the Snyder movies and the positive reactions to JL's Superman (though not so much the movie as a whole) have shown.

No, the bad reactions to the Snyder movies shows that audiences want Superman handled well. People always try to blame success or failure on blanket generalizations, when it's the execution of the individual work that's important. A lot of highly revisionist superhero movies and shows have succeeded, and a number of utterly "traditional" superhero movies and shows have bombed. It's the quality of each attempt that matters -- not what they're trying to do, but how well they do it.

Though it might be possible to have Batman be bi-racial, with white Old Money Thomas Wayne having married a black Martha (though the Batwoman fans who demand the character be Jewish would cry bloody murder on that one).

No valid reason why they should, since there are plenty of black Jewish people in the US alone.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

A non-white Superman is possibly a dumber idea than having Jonathan Kent telling Clark that saving a busload of drowning kids was NOT necessarily the right thing to do.

Not a dumb idea at all! I would legit love a Calvin Ellis as Superman movie. (Calvin Ellis is the Superman of Earth-23. Ellis is the president of the United States and he's based on Barack Obama.)

 

[Mudd]

If everything that might upset racists is "race-baiting," well...

 

[Kai "the spy"]

No, the bad reactions to the Snyder movies shows that audiences want Superman handled well. People always try to blame success or failure on blanket generalizations, when it's the execution of the individual work that's important. A lot of highly revisionist superhero movies and shows have succeeded, and a number of utterly "traditional" superhero movies and shows have bombed. It's the quality of each attempt that matters -- not what they're trying to do, but how well they do it.

True, but such a revisionist Superman movie would have to win audiences over all over again. It'd be a far safer investment to do a traditional Superman movie that can be marketed as such.

No valid reason why they should, since there are plenty of black Jewish people in the US alone.

I didn't know that. And to be quite honest, I doubt the internet would care. Nothing like controversy and riling people up against each other to get those clicks,

 

[Morpheus 02]

A non-white Superman is possibly a dumber idea than having Jonathan Kent telling Clark that saving a busload of drowning kids was NOT necessarily the right thing to do.

All it would be is Hollywood forcing their political correctness and doing their race baiting so that their sheep gets to call anyone who objects to the lunacy a racist and be fake outraged.

Just like it did with Fantastic Four, and just like it did with Ghostbusters, the casting will cause a backlash, which will affect the movie's grosses. It's just ridiculous.

There are plenty of non-white characters that are great. And there are plenty of non-white characters that have yet to be created that will be great. Superman is a white guy.

Don’t mistake your feelings about a role for Cavill’s. You don’t know if this is as important to him as it is to you. If it was, he wouldn’t be negotiating so hard and taking a role that removed him from playing Superman for long stretches at a time.



Race baiting. Lol.

See, now, I want to see a person of color play Superman—really no reason he can’t—just so I can watch the internet burn as fan boys get their panties in a twist, being all triggered because it’s not “their” Superman. Lol.

Ghostbusters didn’t fail because it was a female cast, Fantastic Four didn’t fail because of a black Johnny Storm, they were both TERRIBLE movies.

I don't think I prefer a non white Superman, there are enough collored super heroes to chosen from.
Like a sequel to Hancock

Yes. Race baiting. That's all this is. And yes, there is a reason a person of color can't play Superman. The character is white, and the only reason to do it is race baiting. But your own response proves the point. You want to enjoy the reaction to the race baiting.

And hate to break it to you, but yes, Ghostbusters and Fantastic Four failed in part because of those decisions. They had strikes against them.
Maybe we should recast Black Panther with a white actor. Then you can watch the internet burn.

In part...magnified by the internet (and especially overreaction to the negative response)... for Ghostbusters...the the fact that it was NOT a sequel and a lot of hemming & hawing from the original Ghostbusters (as opposed to diving in and contributing early on) hurt a lot. My daughters loved the movie (and in some ways, not as crude as the original actually was).

And Fantastic 4...they should NOT have had a white Sue. Having a brother and sister character set really needs 2 actors who can plausibly be so. Iris and Wally on the Flash are completely believable though not actually related in real life, or Chadwick and Letitcia in Black Panther. My personal pick would be Megan and Jesse Rath (who have played siblings on screen) -- they could totally pull off SUe & Johnny.

Re-casting Black Panther as a white guy would

What part of Superman’s story requires him to be white?

None.

What part of a king of a secretive African nation that has existed for centuries that was never conquered by Europeans requires him to be black?

All of it.

For Superman, you have grandpas and great-granpas who remember readin him in comics or on TV...the look is pretty cultural. So not "required" but shouldn't deviate too much. (partial Asian Dean Cain however did well)

And for Black Panther...if someone REALLY wanted to (i.e. a producer to fit their favorite actor), they COULD make some kind of excuse, like he was adopted (sort of like Tarzan), or married into the Black Panther line, or something.

But considering that they JUST introduced Black Panther, and it is one of Marvel's most money-making movie ever (and he was even on Saturday Night Live), it would have to be DECADES before anyone could even TRY to do that...and would most likely fail miserably. Despite Infinity Wars, Chadwick Boseman isnt leaving anytime soon, and the franchise is way too valuable for Marvel to do what SOny did to Spiderman

Wrong. None of that requires Black Panther to be black. There are white people in Africa. As for what requires Superman to be white--the creators created him that way. The only reason to make him anything else is to race bait so that the PC police can get outraged and call anyone who objects to this stupidity a racist, despite the reality that such a stunt is racist by itself.

i think it would be a bit too radical for most (see above) to immediatly switch up Superman...but someone mutlicultural (like we saw with Dean Cain) could ease the image into the culture. In about 30 years, when whites will become a minority in the US, I am sure we will see a bigger variation of the Superman look in terms of ethnicity.