DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

[Mr. Adventure]

I'm just saying that when someone uses it's like a CW show as a pejorative I have a pretty good idea of what they mean. I've watched most of them though I bailed on Supergirl before and Flash this last season so I'm certainly don't require utter perfection.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Yeah, "like a CW show" is not exactly known has a high praise.

No you are correct--it is not. DC/CW has become both a direct criticism of the often immature, Aaron Spelling-esque "stories" and shorthand for an inferior TV series in general, and certainly not evocative of DC adaptations at their best, with the exception of Black Lightning (as a complete series) and the first season of Batwoman.

I have zero experience with the CW shows. I only know what I read here and other fan boards reading CW level shows and writing.

So, yeah. Take it up with them...

You are not in the wrong referencing fan boards, or other sources; getting past the usual social media head-butting, you will find serious analysis of the DC/CW series, and overall there's wide acceptance that most of the DC/CW series were/are terrible (with its Dollar Store knock-off version of Crisis on Infinite Earths being a farcical wreck instead of coming anywhere near the majesty and drama of the landmark comic maxi-series) . The Gonzales interview (if accurate) --specifically one of his screening contacts comparing Batgirl to a CW pilot is merely indicative of the general perception of a DC/CW series as not being very good--something no big budget superhero film should emulate.

So you're saying then that in entire history of movies, no studio has ever released a movie that people would consider worse than The Flash or Arrow pilots?

May's Ishtar (1987) and Coppola's One from the Heart (1982) were arguably as misguided and creatively challenged as DC/CW pilots (yes, even Coppola fell far off of the creative rails at that time), and for both being colossal critical and financial failures, one could say it would have been better off for the studios involved if they were not released, all things considered.

And that there is no way absolutely no possible a movie some people have compared to a CW show could be successful?

The DC/CW's reputation is not good; I'd only give Black Lightning--the one and only great (complete) series ever associated with DC/CW--a chance to have some critical impact, as its powerful, sociopolitical plotting / message near-perfectly blended with the why of the Pierce family's lives and rich conflicts (as in establishing a compelling backstory that easily informed the main, present-day plots, which felt as if had real meaning for both characters and audience members. That said, its strength--that sociopolitical plotting--was so forceful that a movie would likely underperform, if recalling the reactions within DC/CW audiences--the undeniable resistance (and in some cases, resentment i've come across in public and on social media) to the series, as it was speaking a language completely different than the other DC/CW series they preferred.

To me for a movie to have to be hidden away like they're doing with this, it would literally have to be one of the absolute worst things ever in the entire history of cinema, and it doesn't sound like this was that bad.

That's why I pointed out that information will continue to trickle out; eventually, more individuals who attended the screening will make their opinion known, and from that, we may get a more formed view of Batgirl's positives and negatives.

 

[Christopher]

I'm just saying that when someone uses it's like a CW show as a pejorative I have a pretty good idea of what they mean.

And I'm saying that I don't care if they think that's a pejorative, because I'd have no problem watching a Batgirl movie that was like a CW show. I mean, the acclaimed "Batgirl of Burnside" run in the comics was a lot like a CW show in a lot of ways, so I'd say that's actually a hell of a good model for a Batgirl movie to emulate.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Well, I'm glad that's settled then.

 

[Dee1891]

No you are correct--it is not. DC/CW has become both a direct criticism of the often immature, Aaron Spelling-esque "stories" and shorthand for an inferior TV series in general, and certainly not evocative of DC adaptations at their best, with the exception of Black Lightning (as a complete series) and the first season of Batwoman.

In regard to the Arrowverse franchise, some of the shows (or episodes) were either really good, good, mediocre or bad. You know, the usual gauntlet with television shows.

 

[theenglish]

The full quote about the movie is "It’s not really a strong film, the tone is just very CW, lacking in depth, lighter and more comic book-like". Oh no, more comic book-like? I assume even though they mention it being like a "CW pilot" they mean more like a later "CW series" once it's settled in. I wonder how much of this is a tonal thing and is a bit subjective. "Lacking in depth" is more damning but with no context there isn't much to chew on.

I'm in the camp that back when the Arrowverse was firing on all cylinders it rivalled the MCU in terms of character development and quality of story. I've enjoyed the more "edgy" series like Titans and Doom Patrol. I even liked Peacemaker and Swamp Thing. But I still feel that DC needs to be less "edgy" if it wants to expand its cinematic audience. I was actually hoping that Batgirl, Green Lantern and others would be like the CW series but with better effects and more space to open up wider narratives and time to get less "traditional television" production values. More like the feel of the actual comics I guess. That does not seem to be the direction WB wants to go--what I'm concerned about though is that I get the feeling that WB is actual using coded language and their real motives are to bring back traditional white male narratives.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Yes, the Arrowverse shows have a lot of imperfections. But hell, so did the original comics! I mean, come on, have you read Golden or Silver Age comics? They were routinely dumb and ridiculous and cheesy and nonsensical. A lot of modern comics are too. But they were fun, and they had enough positive attributes to have a lasting impact and be loved by many people. The Arrowverse captures that magnificently, both the richness and the silliness of DC's history, and most of all that sense of fun. The DCEU movies have only occasionally managed that.

We don't love things -- or people -- because they're absolutely perfect. I mean, if you really look at the most beloved TV series or comics or book series on a granular basis, you'll probably find that the majority of their content is mediocre and much of it is poor. But it's their moments of greatness, the parts that rise above the average, that we remember them for.

This is again not a judgement based on quality. The fact that some people like 'silly and cheesy' enough to forgive bad quality is great - for those people. But it doesn't erase the underlying quality. More importantly, we don't have to settle for CW level quality to get things that are fun and willing to embrace silliness like the old comics. The MCU, despite some lower quality bumps in the road now and then, has proven that repeatedly. The Doom Patrol show proved it. The Umbrella Academy proved it. The Tick proved it. Young justice proved it. The Incredibles proved it. Shazam proved it. Wonder Woman proved it. And even though they are more edgy humor oriented than family friendly, stuff like The Suicide Squad, Invincible and the Boys are also very firmly rooted in the fun and silly side of the genre.

 

[Christopher]

what I'm concerned about though is that I get the feeling that WB is actual using coded language and their real motives are to bring back traditional white male narratives.

You're not alone in that. I think if they try it, it will hurt them at the box office. The whiners complaining about diversity are loud, but they're a dwindling percentage of the audience, which is exactly why they're so desperate to cling to the past.

 

[DigificWriter]

Given that the Arrowverse as a franchise officially includes movies dating back to 1978 (Superman: The Movie) and the longest-running Superhero television series in history (Smallville), it's patently ridiculous to try and relegate it to a pejorative of low quality.

People do patently ridiculous things all the time, though, so it is, sadly, what it is.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

By that standard, the MCU includes the Raimi films and all the Fox movies. So that would indeed be a ridiculous standard.

 

[DigificWriter]

By that standard, the MCU includes the Raimi films and all the Fox movies.

Not really, because the reasons that the "Donnerverse" Superman film series (including Supergirl) and Smallville (along with CBS' The Flash and NBC's Constantine) are part of the Arrowverse franchise go deeper than just crossover appearances from actors/characters and involve narrative decisions and intertwined lore that the MCU hasn't even remotely touched yet and likely never will because it's too focused on churning out simple, formulaic mass-market entertainment.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

what I'm concerned about though is that I get the feeling that WB is actual using coded language and their real motives are to bring back traditional white male narratives.

Then Black Adam--starring a man who is so obviously not a white male, and is not portraying one (the character comes from one of the more non-white regions on the planet), or the forthcoming Blue Beetle--about Jaime Reyes (with a strong supportive family storyline)--would not be moving forward toward release. I would be far more attuned to / sensitive about entertainment company's deliberate whitewashing or marginalization (the latter exemplified with James Olsen in every season of Supergirl, Luke Fox in seasons 2 & 3 of Batwoman, Finn in the Star Wars sequels, et al.), and at present, with the aforementioned DC films, the white male narrative has not overtaken the DCEU.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

That does not seem to be the direction WB wants to go--what I'm concerned about though is that I get the feeling that WB is actual using coded language and their real motives are to bring back traditional white male narratives.

Fits what we're seeing over at CNN since the merger.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Not really, because the reasons that the "Donnerverse" Superman film series (including Supergirl) and Smallville (along with CBS' The Flash and NBC's Constantine) are part of the Arrowverse franchise go deeper than just crossover appearances from actors/characters and involve narrative decisions and intertwined lore that the MCU hasn't even remotely touched yet and likely never will because it's too focused on churning out simple, formulaic mass-market entertainment.

Ok then. The CW crossovers are special for some unspecified bullshit reason. Which means the DCEU movies are also part of the CWverse which means this entire conversation is impossible and never happened.

Or we could stop with the moronicly pedantic definition combat and accept that people are not talking about non-CW series or old movies when they talk about the CW verse. Because the purpose of the discussion is not to classify the series based on how they connect to various other series and movies but based on the people who produced them, ie, the CW network and Berlanti. And since you're not going to find 'CW verse' in any dictionary, you can **** off with any claims that your definition is the 'right' definition and you know better what other people are referring to with the phrase 'CW-verse' than they do.

 

[DigificWriter]

Which means the DCEU movies are also part of the CWverse

No.

 

[Sketcher]

ughhhhh

 

[JD]

Just out of curiosity I looked up Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow, and Superman & Lois on IMDB, Amazon, and Metacritic it looks like the majority of people really don't think they're that bad.
On Amazon none of the season ratings are below 4.5/5 with between 1K and 2k review, on IMDB they're all 6s and 7s, and on Metacritic, which for those not aware of it, is based on professional reviews from big names critics, they range from 53 (for LoT) to 75 (Arrow & Supergirl). So yeah, really not seeing where everybody thinks their horrible.
Yes, the have had their ups and downs over the seasons, but when they've been at their best, I've enjoyed them more than any of the movies. I still consider the Arrowverse one of my absolute TV franchises, up there with the three Stars.
Overall, I think the Arrowverse has done a much better job of capturing the feel of the comics than any of the movies. Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed quite a few of the DCEU movies, but none of them having captured the feel and tone of the comics, the way the Arrowverse shows or the MCU has.

 

[kirk55555]

The first 2 to 3 seasons of CW's The Flash are the best live action DC based TV show ever made in my opinion, and (as much as you can compare TV shows to movies) better then most of the live action films DC has ever put out (not just DCEU).

It went downhill from there, drastically downhill, but Flash (and Arrow, to a lesser extent) were legitimately great for the first parts of their run, which people seem to forget, especially people that like to trash the CW shows in general.

 

[JD]

Yeah, I'd put those seasons, and maybe a little past those for me, right up there as some of the best comics TV ever.

 

[theenglish]

For me, the Arrowverse was solid right up until the COIE season. Previous to that Arrow's pen-ultimate season was one of its best. During that year, Arrow's final half season was pretty horrible and The Flash was poor as well. I was still enjoying Supergirl and Legends though.