DC Comics: Rebirth

[Kirk Prime]

I agree that Lois is just as important. And I also agree that Superman and Lois are the mom and dad. I actually like that analogy. I hope this doesn't get too off topic, but I think that all of that is why I had to stop reading comics, and why the movies have had so many problems.

For me, Superman needs to be the center of the DC universe, and I think for Hollywood, Batman is. Frank Miller writes one story in the 1980s, and Hollywood completely forgets how to do Superman right.

For me again, there hasn't been a good Superman movie since 1980--that's a long time for such a great character. Meanwhile, the cartoons are terrific.

Getting back to the comics--Kal-L, the original Earth 2 Superman, is supposed to represent the Action #1 Superman--a revered version of the character. So revered in fact, that the DC writers in 1985 made it a point to save him and his Lois from oblivion--something they didn't even do for Earth 1 Superman--despite that version arguably being the most powerful and popular.

How awesome is that level of respect?

So for me, it felt like such a slap in the face the way they treated the character in Infinite Crisis and then Blackest Night. I loved Infinite Crisis until they killed Kal-L. Superman--the original Action #1--is beaten to death by some punk kid who went crazy? THAT's his fate? After he was teetering on being the villain?

I would have much rather have seen that version of the character just return and live a life as part of the Superman family--as a supporting hero to the current version. Like Powergirl.

Or better, restore the ORIGINAL multiverse and send him home.

That leads to another question--why make a new multiverse when they had a one that could return? And why number the Earths exactly the same so the audience can't tell them apart. I never know if they are talking about Earth 2, or original multiverse Earth 2. I just can't tell.

I feel that today's Superman isn't written right--especially in the movies. I actually think that Marvel writes a better version of Superman--they just call him Captain America. Cap shows that Superman is not too corny to work in today's world--when written and cast well.

Ironically, this situation in Rebirth, with the post-Crisis Superman showing up and taking over, isn't that different than my thoughts on Kal-L.

But right now, it's so confusing.

They should for example, relabel Earth 2 --the current one--to Earth 2A. Earth 2 would revert to original pre-Crisis Earth 2 so we know what the heck they are talking about.

I think until they get Superman right in the movies, the DC movies are not going to work.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Well, the new Earth-2 is going away and the Justice Society is returning (the real one), so there's that bit of confusion righting itself.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Ok, how is the new Earth 2 going away? And what about the original Earth 2? If the events of Crisis were altered, wouldn't Kal-L be saved?

 

[Hound of UIster]

CoiE and its sequels happened.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

The current Earth-2 series has been cancelled. With the JSA returning we likely won't see their New 52 counterparts for a good long while. But it's the multiverse, they'll still be out there somewhere.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I read on wiki that Convergence ended with the idea that Crisis was going to be prevented.

From the wiki page:

"Seeing no other solution, the time traveler Waverider (a pre-Flashpoint future version of Booster Gold) summons Brainiac back. Brainiac reveals he was the pre-Flashpoint Brainiac who, surviving that event, sought to explore the history of the Multiverse, but became mutated by the effects of the previous crises. He realizes what a monster he has become and wishes to put things right. He prepares to send everyone back where they came from, but is prevented by the damaging effects of the original crisis in Crisis on Infinite Earths. The heroes resolve to change the outcome of that Crisis. As Brainiac sends the pre-Crisis Supergirl and Barry Allen back to meet their fates in the original Crisis story, pre-Flashpoint Superman and Zero Hour Parallax (seeking redemption) volunteer to go with them, changing the outcome of the crisis. Brainiac explains that this has brought changes to the Multiverse, causing everything to "return to what it was before I [Brainiac] brought you here." The old worlds of the classic Multiverse live on in both their original versions and the modernized forms depicted in The Multiversity.[8] All worlds and timelines now exist. The Earth 2 team are left behind on the planet, but Telos transports the planet into Earth 2's universe. He appears in the sky to tell the Wonders that he has remembered his real name and where his family is and that the planet will be their New Earth 2. Once again able to channel the power of the Green, Alan terraforms the planet and makes contact with the space fleet carrying the displaced Earth 2 refugees leading them to their new home."

 

[Allyn Gibson]

My prediction on the ending of "Superman Reborn" was...

I feel like the resolution of the story will involve Mxy rewriting reality so Clark and Lois can assume lives in Metropolis much closer to the standard idea (ie., the pre-Flashpoint status quo, albeit with a ten year-old son). I'd be a little disappointed in that, as I like the bucolic Hamilton setting.

...and...

Spoiler

that's essentially what happened at the end of Action Comics #676. The pre-Flashpoint and New 52 Clarks and Loises merged, more as a consequence of Mxy rather than caused by Mxy, and history rewrote itself to weave the pre-Flashpoint history back into the New 52 and creating new history, too, of the Daily Planet crew meeting the infant Jon, so everyone the New 52 Clark and Lois knew now know the "real" versions of the characters.

As someone who is "Lois and Clark forever!" and thinks Jon is the best addition to the Superman mythos since the 1990s, the ending of "Superman Reborn" worked for me.

 

[kirk55555]

My prediction on the ending of "Superman Reborn" was...



...and...

Spoiler

that's essentially what happened at the end of Action Comics #676. The pre-Flashpoint and New 52 Clarks and Loises merged, more as a consequence of Mxy rather than caused by Mxy, and history rewrote itself to weave the pre-Flashpoint history back into the New 52 and creating new history, too, of the Daily Planet crew meeting the infant Jon, so everyone the New 52 Clark and Lois knew now know the "real" versions of the characters.

As someone who is "Lois and Clark forever!" and thinks Jon is the best addition to the Superman mythos since the 1990s, the ending of "Superman Reborn" worked for me.

My question is

Spoiler

Was any of that really necessary? Does that mean that the good superman and Lois are gone, and the broody asshole superman and lame Lois of the New 52 are back, but now as Jon's parents? If that's the case I'll be dropping all Superman related books immediately. I loathed the New 52 Superman, and loved how they brought the real one back. If they just retconned the New 52 Superman in place of the good superman, it will be one of the worst things DC has done in years.

Rebirth, for all the good its done, doesn't have a good batman focused book (Detective Comics is great, but not really focused on Batman) and Wonder Woman's two current storylines are both terrible (although the book can still turn itself around once the bad story arcs are done). Superman has been the one completely solid member of the "Rebirthed" DC Trinity, it will suck if DC just killed all of that in one terrible storyline (and this "Mxy-in-name-only" erasing Jon has been a terrible storyarc).

I don't even want to read Action Comics now, but I will so I'll know if I'll have to replace Superman/Action Comics on my comic reading schedule.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

My question is

Spoiler

Was any of that really necessary?

In the long run, I think the answer to that is yes. Superman isn't Cable, and the DCU isn't the Marvel Universe. Making Superman's history overly complicated -- the last survivor from a dead timeline -- was going to be problematic over the long-term. Just look at the damage DC did to Hawkman in the 90s, and what should be a simple concept -- guy flies around like a hawk and beats the crap out of criminals with a mace -- became mired in retcon after retcon to the point where Hawkman is pretty much unusable as a character. What Tomasi and Jurgens did in "Superman Reborn" cleans up Superman's backstory going forward in Rebirth and beyond with a history that honors and makes sense of the past.

My question is

Spoiler

Does that mean that the good superman and Lois are gone, and the broody asshole superman and lame Lois of the New 52 are back, but now as Jon's parents? If that's the case I'll be dropping all Superman related books immediately.

No, it doesn't mean that at all.

Spoiler

Superman and Lois going forward are the pre-Flashpoint versions. At the absolute worst, they have the memories of the pre-Flashpoint characters with the bodies of their New 52 counterparts.

What's different now is that people remember them, the pre-Flashpoint versions, not the New 52 versions.

Jon's birth is different now, though. We see that he was born in the Fortress of Solitude, not Thomas Wayne's Batcave.

 

[kirk55555]

In the long run, I think the answer to that is yes. Superman isn't Cable, and the DCU isn't the Marvel Universe. Making Superman's history overly complicated -- the last survivor from a dead timeline -- was going to be problematic over the long-term. Just look at the damage DC did to Hawkman in the 90s, and what should be a simple concept -- guy flies around like a hawk and beats the crap out of criminals with a mace -- became mired in retcon after retcon to the point where Hawkman is pretty much unusable as a character. What Tomasi and Jurgens did in "Superman Reborn" cleans up Superman's backstory going forward in Rebirth and beyond with a history that honors and makes sense of the past.

Well, I never found the various Hawks backstory that confusing, but ignoring that the current Superman backstory wasn't confusing. It could even be boiled down for a general audience "Its Superman and Lois from another dimension, and they have a kid". I know its technically a different timeline, but "different dimension/earth" is close enough if it needs simplification. You can't say that different dimensions are too confusing a concept for a comic character. I don't think the dead timeline is even that confusing, but even if you need to simplify the explanation its not that hard to do.

No, it doesn't mean that at all.

Spoiler

Superman and Lois going forward are the pre-Flashpoint versions. At the absolute worst, they have the memories of the pre-Flashpoint characters with the bodies of their New 52 counterparts.

What's different now is that people remember them, the pre-Flashpoint versions, not the New 52 versions.

Jon's birth is different now, though. We see that he was born in the Fortress of Solitude, not Thomas Wayne's Batcave.

That doesn't even make sense

Spoiler

Superman and Lois can't have given birth to Jon on this Earth. Either because a) They're the good versions and weren't on this Earth, or b) They barely knew each other, because the New 52 Superman has only been active for about 5 years and he certainly didn't know Lois well enough to have a kid with her 5 years ago, much less have a 10 year old kid right now. Even if you want to say Superman was active in secret 10 years ago around the same time New 52 Batman started, the New 52 Superman isn't even 30 (half the point of the New 52 was to de-age the heroes), so unless New 52 Clark met and had a kid with Lois when they were both around 15-16 that also makes no sense.

So, they have actually made the Superman backstory exponentially more confusing and broken, because Clark and Lois must conform to the old cliches or, I don't know, Dan Didio will throw a temper tantrum (which we know he does do sometimes, based on his reported reaction to the 52 weekly series years ago ). Exchanging a fairly explainable backstory with a confusing backstory that makes no sense if you think about it? That sounds like the New 52 philosophy trying to push its way back into Rebirth. I wonder how long until Superman shaves his hair and switches to a "T-Shirt and jeans" costume again, presumably sometime after Jon is killed (which I'm giving 3-6 months if they're going back to the New 52 style).

Edit: So I actually went and read the latest issue of Action Comics. It was completely incoherent, with its terrible "Mxy-In-Name-Only" that makes Supergirl (the tV series) version look authentic by comparison. But, basically, its not the worst case scenario.

Spoiler

Superman and Lois weren't acting like the terrible New 52 versions (so far). But, there is still the problem with ages, and how they now had to have either conceived Jon as teenagers or superman is now the oldest JL member outside of Batman and has to have been Superman for over a decade.

So, unless Superman/Lois start acting like the terrible New 52 versions next issue (which is a very real possibility but I'll wait and see what happens) the storyline was just a completely nonsensical, incoherent waste of time that only exists so that Clark and Lois can fit back in their jobs as reporters while keeping Jon. I just love it when bad writers and/or incompetent editors produce a crap story just so they can fit characters into the story spots they want.

So, pros and cons:

Pros:
-The Superman books might not be ruined
-Jon stays around

Cons:
-The backstory of Superman/Lois is completely broken and doesn't fit with the entire main DC universe as its been set
-The backstory is also completely incoherent as well as not fitting into the universe at all
-Nonew of this was neccessary and just makes things worse
-We've now lost the last connection to the far superior Pre-Flashpoint universe
-Every single issue of every comic with Lois/Clark/Jon before this one is now non canon and doesn't work
-Its another pointless f^&*&%g retcon by the King of Pointless Retcons/Reboots, DC Comics.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I think the "5 year" chronology is out the window. It didn't make sense in 2011, and it doesn't make any sense now.

Given that we're only halfway through Rebirth's two-year arc, and it seems to me to be designed to revert as much of the New 52 to the pre-Flashpoint status quo as it can, I'm confident that there's still a lot of story to be told (coming up soon in "The Button") and the thing you fear at the end, kirk55555, won't come to pass.

 

[kirk55555]

I think the "5 year" chronology is out the window. It didn't make sense in 2011, and it doesn't make any sense now.

Given that we're only halfway through Rebirth's two-year arc, and it seems to me to be designed to revert as much of the New 52 to the pre-Flashpoint status quo as it can, I'm confident that there's still a lot of story to be told (coming up soon in "The Button") and the thing you fear at the end, kirk55555, won't come to pass.

Hopefully not, although "The Button" is already off to a bad start because its going to make me read more of Tom King's crap Batman comic (seriously, why is this man allowed to write anything after what he did to Catwoman and Bane? Was Dan Didio's pet goldfish too busy?), and no story that guy writes is going to end well. I really wish DC would spend the money to hire good writers to write Batman. They do have people like Greg Rucka working for them, but no, they go with a guy who makes me wish Snyder was on the book, and I loathe basically every Snyder comic I've read.

If The Button is comprehensible (and I'm talking about the bare minimum when I say that, since several issues of King's Batman run seem to have been put through google translate several times into several languages before coming back around to something vaguely resembling English), that will probably be a victory for DC.

Based on what I read, I'm about 60% sure Superman isn't ruined, and about 50% sure that "The Button" will be worthwhile. DC gets no breaks from me after how they basically ruined 90% of their characters for about half a decade, they need to prove competence every single time with

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

It's official!

Superman…

…is back!

 

[Guy Gardener]

I thought that you meant that the outer briefs were back.



TEASE!

 

[kirk55555]

There is nothing in those pictures that hasn't been there since the first Superman rebirth issue. He's not "back", he's been back for over six months, longer if you count how long him/Lois/Jon were around before the death of the New 52 Superman. Its just that now, after a terrible story arc, he can work at the Daily Planet again, a part of the character that really hasn't been missed in my opinion. They didn't even change his Rebirth costume. He hasn't been "Reborn", he's gotten his old job back, and that's about it.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Dude, you have seriously misread these Superman books. Your conclusions don't match the story at all. At some point in the past Superman and Lois were split in two: presumably by Doctor Manhattan. The blue pair were linked to pre-Flashpoint, the red pair to post-Flashpoint. The two pairs have been made whole, restoring their original selves. Superman Reborn is both literal and metaphorical, the first step in the DC Universe's return to its roots. Doctor Manhattan's machinations have now been thwarted--though the principle players don't yet know this--setting up the next chapter of Rebirth. The story is not finished.

 

[kirk55555]

Dude, you have seriously misread these Superman books. Your conclusions don't match the story at all. At some point in the past Superman and Lois were split in two: presumably by Doctor Manhattan. The blue pair were linked to pre-Flashpoint, the red pair to post-Flashpoint. The two pairs have been made whole, restoring their original selves. Superman Reborn is both literal and metaphorical, the first step in the DC Universe's return to its roots. Doctor Manhattan's machinations have now been thwarted--though the principle players don't yet know this--setting up the next chapter of Rebirth. The story is not finished.

Except there was no difference between pre-Flashpoint Superman and post fusion Superman so far. He wasn't missing anything, there was nothing split. The Clark/Lois with Jon were whole, as were the asshole New 52 Clark/Lois. There was just the good Superman/Lois, and the crap New 52 version. They were two separate (and "whole") sets of characters, period. But, DC can't just let their broody assholes die, so either the writer or editor tried to justify the new 52 Superman's existence while getting the good (aka pre-reboot) Clark and Lois their old jobs back.

There was no reason for this last storyline to exist, except to give Clark and Lois their cliched status quo back (because god knows we haven't gotten enough of Lois and Clark at the Daily Planet in the last 79 years), but with Jon and their pre-Flashpoint versions in that status quo. But, there was no actual "fusion", that was a crap plot point so someone at DC can pretend that their crap idea of Superman and Lois (the new 52 versions) ever mattered.

For all of that, we got the worst Superman story arc in Rebirth (and the worst Mxy story I know of). Plus, a completely broken backstory that means either Lois was a teen mother, Jon ages faster then humans, or Superman is now the oldest active superhero (outside of Batman) by at least five years, and also older then every other active superhero but Batman by virtue of being in his 30s instead of early-mid 20s like every non-Bruce Wayne Justice Leaguer was turned into with Rebirth.

It also has no connection to anything. Manhattan must be terrible at his job if his "split" characters aren't actually split at all. So, in the end, it was a terribly written story arc that made no sense, was about 90% bullshit and 10% completely pointless, and did nothing except give Lois/Clark their old jobs and show how desperate DC is to pretend that the New 52 Superman/Lois ever mattered.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I'm not going to spend a lot of time worrying about the ages of Clark, Lois, and Bruce. I didn't in the past, and after "Superman Reborn" I'm not going to worry about it any more than I ever have.

Lois and Clark have a ten year-old son. So, I figure they're in their early 40s. They could be in their late 30s, but that doesn't "feel" right to me.

Bruce has a thirteen-year-old son. He's probably 45. (Pre-Flashpoint, I thought he could be over 50.)

These ages work for me. I'm fine with them. How do they fit with the post-Flashpoint universe, now that Clark and Lois' pre-Flashpoint history has been worked back in? I don't know. If it's important, DC will tell us in a story. If it's not important, then DC will gloss over it. I'm fine with that.

Clark and Lois were always going to slip back into their traditional roles in Metropolis and at the Daily Planet. That's the status quo of the characters that the mass public knows. Frankly, I'm glad that DC did it in such a way that cleanly integrates Jon into the Metropolis milieu going forward. I really thought DC would set up a situation where Lois and Clark were passing him off as an adopted son to fit the New 52 version of the characters. Instead, DC jettisoned the New 52 version of the characters and their history and replaced them entirely with the pre-Flashpoint versions. To the extent that they were "merged," the five years of the New 52 is there for Tomasi, Jurgens, and other writers to use if they want. But I don't really expect them to.

 

[kirk55555]

It doesn't really matter. I don't think any writer, ever, will try to claim any of the New 52 adventures happened to the current Superman. I don't even think that was part of the storyarc honestly, at least not one the writer intended to ever use. Plus, we know Superman just met Batman and Wonder Woman in the last few months, part of which is shown in the Trinity book, and I doubt they just retconned all of the Trinity book while its still running and is less then a year old, along with all of that Superwoman book, etc. Plus, a lot of the New 52 Superman's stuff couldn't have happened to the current Superman. The "Clark Kent is revealed as Superman, now with shaved head and T-shirt costume" story arc couldn't have happened to him, and neither could grant Morrison's horrible Action Comics run.

It makes more sense if the story just retconned new 52 Clark and Lois out of existence and replaced them with the good versions. That is probably how it will be treated, even though this Superman didn't found or have many adventures with the Justice League which leads to its own problems.

As for ages, Clark and Lois should be in their forties, but I guarantee their ages are the only thing the "merging" changed, and I bet they're now supposed to have had Jon in their mid-20s, making them in their mid thirties. I've also never considered Batman older then 40 at the most. I mean, realistically, all heroes who aren't specifically old or young are in permanent "Prime of their life" age, basically. It was the New 52 that starting trying to put strict ages (generally younger) and set a timeline for their universe. I'm fine with a sliding timescale that slightly shifts as time goes by (like how Tony Stark's heart keeps getting damaged in a more recent conflict as time goes by).

As for their jobs, I honestly didn't expect them to do this. I did think they'd go back to the Planet, but I figured Lois would keep up her charade, and Clark would take fake Clark's place. That would have been preferable to the terrible "merging" story that doesn't merge anything and just exists to magically give Lois and Clark their old jobs.

But, who cares. I expect all the New 52 elements, except a possible age drop, to be completely ignored and the characters continue as they've been doing since before Rebirth, but now working at the DP. If this was just an excuse to give the New 52 characters a kid, I'll drop the books immediately. But, if that doesn't happen, I doubt any of the New 52 stuff will be mentioned in any significant way.

 

[Guy Gardener]

OMG.

Batman 21.

SQUEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

I'm going to look for a checklist, I keep bumping into the edges of the legion returning in a few titles, but #### it, I need some bloody meat.