DC Cinematic Universe ( The James Gunn era)

[theenglish]

That’s wildly optimistic to the point of unrealistic. Zod was an extremist before Kal was even born. The first thing we see Zod do in MOS is kill a member of his planet’s government and stage a coup d’etat. A coup that ends with him murdering Kal’s father, Jor-El. Zod carves a killing spree across two planets, before Superman stops him.

Zod was incapable and unwilling to stop himself. He even says that it’s apart of his warrior caste programming. As soldier, it was victory or death for him.

Only because that is the way he was written for the movie. You get that Snyder wrote that, right. The backstory is written to create the specific ending we got. Rewriting is not just writing one scene, but everything related to that scene. There are enough stories out there where Zod and Superman have worked together temporarily. Zod, in the comics, eventually gets his own new Krypton.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

There are plenty of great Superman themes, and I appreciate it when different versions get their own musical identity, but the John Williams theme is the full force 'pop culture icon for 86 years' music they can bring out on special occasions. Same with the '89 Danny Elfman Batman theme. I'm not sad when they don't make an appearance, but I'm definitely not sad when they do.

 

[Mudd]

Snyder wanted to write a story in which Clark was forced to kill Zod.

That's the long and the short of it.

There are interesting incidents in the course of the film, but the story's nothing special.

 

[JD]

That's not accurate. It also shows up in Justice League, Shazam!, Black Adam, and League of Super-Pets.
Edit: And an episode of Crisis on Infinite Earths. And Teen Titans Go! To The Movies. And The Lego Batman movie. And the earlier, cheaper Lego Batman: The Movie - DC Super Heroes Unite. And that's not including the countless times it's been used in non-DC material as a shorthand for referencing Superman. Which is a different situation to being used "officially" but it shows how ingrained the theme has become as part of Superman.

Please note: I am not arguing that it should always be used.

The second and third LEGO Batman and LEGO DC Super Villains games, which expanded the series to all of DC not just Batman, play the theme every he flies when someone is playing as Superman.
FYI LEGO Batman: The Movie - DC Super Heroes Unite is actually just the cutscenes from LEGO Batman 2: DC Super Heroes edited together.

 

[Ceridwen]

When it comes to the debate of the theme songs, I’m down for new themes. The more the merrier. My personal favorite is the Fleischer. I mean, come on shipmates. Feel that fanfare!

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This one is my favorite too, and the first "Superman Theme" I think of, so I can't say this conversation hasn't been a bit alienating.

 

[Tosk]

Looks amazing. And Gunn definitely not letting down the Clois home team.

"These two auditioned and they were the best. But they also auditioned together. When I was casting Lois and Clark, I wasn't just casting Lois and Clark, I was casting Clois. I was casting what their relationship was together and the energy they have between them." - James Gunn.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Only because that is the way he was written for the movie. You get that Snyder wrote that, right. The backstory is written to create the specific ending we got. Rewriting is not just writing one scene, but everything related to that scene.

What are you pitching here? Do you want a less menacing, less intense general Zod? Zod is always a criminal on Krypton and renegade actor before he ever even meets Superman.

Zod was engaged in an unseen, treasonous coup in the 1978 movie and a treasonous coup in MOS that we did see. The futility of both actions is Zod launches these insurrections on the last day of the planet. In Zod’s mind, in many instances. He is the hero of the narrative.

Remember that Zod is meant to be a Hitler stand-in. The dark mirror of Superman. An evil alien Übermensch. How would you propose to soften his image that he could battle Superman, lose and still be ammenable to leaving Earth peacefully. Like you suggested?

There are enough stories out there where Zod and Superman have worked together temporarily. Zod, in the comics, eventually gets his own new Krypton.

And? There are stories where Superman has worked with Darkseid, Brainiac and Luthor temporarily. They are all unrepentant mass murderer before and after that alliance.

You should read the history of Zods list in my previous post in the spoiler tag. DC is not interested in changing Zod into some hypothetical “uneasy ally” that you seem to be suggesting. Superman has one of those already. That would be Lobo.

I think you are conflating something you don’t like (Snyder’s take on Zod), with something you think is wrong. See the aforementioned list. Zod is a recurring ‘one and done’ villain in the stories he appears in. With many of these oneshot appearances involving Superman or one of his allies having to swing the sword to put him down.

Zod is not Luthor. There is no conventional prison that can hold him. And seemingly, most writers have concluded that just putting Zod back in the zone after he wreaks murder & mayhem is unacceptable. Probably something to do with maintaining the effectiveness of the Phantom Zone as a “perfect prison” in the narrative. A prison that the same guy keeps breaking out of. They’d rather put him in the ground, than write a scenario that sees him be put back into the PZ.


P.S.
The New Krypton that Zod ruled (along with Kara’s mother) was obtained after an arc where Superman rescued the bottle city of Kandor from Brainiac. Superman, Alura Zor-El, and scientist who reversed Brainiac’s shrink ray did the work. Alura was feuding with her nephew at the time and released Zod from the PZ to help her oppose Clark and the forces of Earth.

That’s a lot of hoops to jump through.

I hate talking about that story. It happened back in 2008-2010 and ended abysmally.

 

[theenglish]

What are you pitching here? Do you want a less menacing, less intense general Zod? Zod is always a criminal on Krypton and renegade actor before he ever even meets Superman.

Zod was engaged in an unseen, treasonous coup in the 1978 movie and a treasonous coup in MOS that we did see. The futility of both actions is Zod launches these insurrections on the last day of the planet. In Zod’s mind, in many instances. He is the hero of the narrative.

Remember that Zod is meant to be a Hitler stand-in. The dark mirror of Superman. An evil alien Übermensch. How would you propose to soften his image that he could battle Superman, lose and still be ammenable to leaving Earth peacefully. Like you suggested?


And? There are stories where Superman has worked with Darkseid, Brainiac and Luthor temporarily. They are all unrepentant mass murderer before and after that alliance.

You should read the history of Zods list in my previous post in the spoiler tag. DC is not interested in changing Zod into some hypothetical “uneasy ally” that you seem to be suggesting. Superman has one of those already. That would be Lobo.

I think you are conflating something you don’t like (Snyder’s take on Zod), with something you think is wrong. See the aforementioned list. Zod is a recurring ‘one a done’ villain in the stories he appears in. With many of these oneshot appearances involving Superman or one of his allies having to swing the sword to put him down.

Zod is not Luthor. There is no conventional prison that can hold him. And seemingly, most writers have concluded that just putting Zod back in the zone after he wreaks murder & mayhem is unacceptable. Probably something to do with maintaining the effectiveness of the Phantom Zone as a “perfect prison” in the narrative. A prison that the same guy keeps breaking out of. They’d rather put him in the ground, than write a scenario that sees him be put back into the PZ.


P.S.
The New Krypton that Zod ruled (along with Kara’s mother) was obtained after an arc where Superman rescued the bottle city of Kandor from Brainiac. Superman, Alura Zor-El, and scientist who reversed Brainiac’s shrink ray did the work. Alura was feuding with her nephew at the time and released Zod from the PZ to help her oppose Clark and the forces of Earth.

That’s a lot of hope to jump through.

I hate talking about that story. It happened back in 2008-2010 and ended abysmally.

Dude, I'm not even going to read the majority of your ramble-- it's, to be frank, bullshit and you spent way to much energy on a completely irrelevant point.

The only reason why Superman had to kill Zod at the end of MoS was because the movie was written that way. It could have been written differently so Superman wouldn't have to kill him. That's my only point. It's fiction. I loved the movie, but it didn't have to end like it did. Snyder chose to write it that way. It's fiction. <Is there a way to have a capital period?>

 

[Tosk]

Zod was engaged in an unseen, treasonous coup

Isn't a coup treasonous by definition?

 

[Mudd]

Dude, I'm not even going to read the majority of your ramble-- it's, to be frank, bullshit and you spent way to much energy on a completely irrelevant point.

The only reason why Superman had to kill Zod at the end of MoS was because the movie was written that way. It could have been written differently so Superman wouldn't have to kill him. That's my only point. It's fiction. I loved the movie, but it didn't have to end like it did. Snyder chose to write it that way. It's fiction. <Is there a way to have a capital period?>

Exactly so.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

That’s wildly optimistic to the point of unrealistic. Zod was an extremist before Kal was even born. The first thing we see Zod do in MOS is kill a member of his planet’s government and stage a coup d’etat. A coup that ends with him murdering Kal’s father, Jor-El. Zod carves a killing spree across two planets, before Superman stops him.

Zod was incapable and unwilling to stop himself. He even says that it’s apart of his warrior caste programming. As soldier, it was victory or death for him.

Look no further than the Flash movie to see what would have happened if Zod got his way. He killed baby Kal, Kara and Keaton Batman with no hesitation and no sympathy.

Some do not understand that characters of Zod's nature--the unrelenting acts of suppression and violence--are bonded to real world personalities, hence the audience's ability to understand the gravity of the threat in something more than cartoon-ish bad guy villainy, or the rainbows-and-daisies wish for deadly individuals to be reasonable and work out their problems. That's more unrealistic than a guy in tights and a cape flying around, and creatively, lacks any sense of what creating a great villain requires.

I made a list about how DC treats Zod as a character. TL;DR he’s marked for death almost everywhere he shows up.

Musings about Zod:

If the letter V is for Vendetta. Then E should be "Expendable". Because that's what Zod is. The writers have no problem introducing Zod and then killing him off at the end of their story. Of the list below, you will note that 5 different Zods existed during the Post-Crisis (1986-2011) continuity. Being an evil Superman isn't new. The Powers That Be have access to Ultraman (the Crime Syndicate), Bizarro, Cyborg Superman (Hank Henshaw or Zor-El), Darkseid and evil versions of Clark to play with. With the exception of Bizarro (who dies frequently due to improper cloning techniques or cellular degradation), no other evil Superman character is treated as expendable as Zod is.

Quite true.

Superman II (1980) - Zod is depowered, thrown into a wall and down a bottomless cavern.

Indeed. That is from the theatrical version--the one intended to be distributed to the audiences in the year of its release, and yes, Superman killed a de-powered man.

Superman vol 2 #22 (1988) - Supergirl Saga: Pre-Crisis Zod is executed by Superman using Green Kryptonite. This after Zod killed the entire populace of a parallel Earth and boasted about doing it again.

...and some have spent years swearing Superman does not kill, when that is simply a lie--or an act of self-deception. Apparently, they missed all of your examples (and those dating back to his earliest published appearances).

Man of Steel (2013) - DCEU Zod was killed after his destroy all life on Earth plot was foiled.

A necessary act. Anyone with experience with real life murderers or those intent on killing know there's no Pollyana-esque approach to dissuade that person from committing that act.

Supergirl CW (2018) - Season 3 episode 12 "For the Good". Superman is stated to have killed his Zod in a past adventure.

Yep, the "ever so hopeful" world of CW-Supergirl's had its Superman killed Zod. There's no rewriting that one.

Superman and Lois (2021) - Season 1 episode 12 "Through The Valley of Death". The deceased Zod's consciousness possess Superman and is later destroyed by Superman. With John Henry's help.

Yes--and at the end of that incident, did Superman express great regret and sorrow over the act?

Only because that is the way he was written for the movie.

It worked, reaching the conclusion one would expect when dealing with someone seconds away from incinerating a family and earlier had their fingers on the scale of the destruction of a species. There's no reasoning with that level of evil.

here are enough stories out there where Zod and Superman have worked together temporarily. Zod, in the comics, eventually gets his own new Krypton.

Why do the need to? In the creation of conflict-oriented fiction, most of the greatest villains historically are not reasonable people one works with, as the goal and philosophy of the villain is not anything to be talked down or compromised.

 

[Mudd]

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[Set Harth]

The Snyderverse -- or as we used to call it back in 1985, "Oliver Queen"

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Dude, I'm not even going to read the majority of your ramble-- it's, to be frank, bullshit and you spent way to much energy on a completely irrelevant point.

The only reason why Superman had to kill Zod at the end of MoS was because the movie was written that way. It could have been written differently so Superman wouldn't have to kill him. That's my only point. It's fiction. I loved the movie, but it didn't have to end like it did. Snyder chose to write it that way. It's fiction. <Is there a way to have a capital period?>

Who is arguing?

You are the one who suggested a scenario where Zod could have left Earth peacefully. I genuinely wanted to know how you saw a scenario like that working in the narrative. And now you don’t want to explain it.

My “bullshit ramble” was an attempt to lay out all the facts of why Zod is not a character that is set-up for redemption or peaceful co-existence. Same with all the other Hitler stand-ins. You seem to misunderstand my intentions. I wasn’t saying Superman killing Zod was right. I’m saying that DC does not care enough about Zod to say it is wrong. Personally, I’d have thrown him back in the zone.

Have it your way. I’ll drop it. Whatever your ideas were, guess we’ll have to call that a Mystery Box.

Isn't a coup treasonous by definition?

I went back to rewatch Zod’s trial in the 1978 movie. One of his charges at trial was treason. Along with sedition.

“My mate, he’s really not so bad”.
~ Reads list of charges.
“Okay, maybe he has a few problems”.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Gunn has said that the Justice League doesn't yet exist during the timeframe of Peacemaker, which takes place prior to Gunn's Suicide Squad. It's possible that it's come into being by the time of Superman.

I wonder if he could change his mind on that. Most of that

OTOH, someone has suggested that the other superheroes wear something like a group uniform in this movie because they're currently members of some proto-JL security team funded - and branded- by a wealthy sponsor, Candidates for that sponsor could be Stagg or Lord...or even Luthor. Supe's disinterest in being on the team might be a thing that would irritate Lex a good deal.

Because artists deserve to create their own art rather than just copying what people did decades before them. Williams himself was homaging Sammy Timberg's Superman cartoon/radio theme and Leon Klatzkin's Adventures of Superman TV theme. Those are just three entries in a rich tradition of Superman themes/marches that includes multiple other excellent, memorable themes such as Ron Jones's '88 cartoon theme, Kevin Kiner's syndicated Superboy theme (which he's revived for the different Superboy in Titans), Jay Gruska's Lois and Clark theme (a favorite of mine), Shirley Walker's S:TAS theme, Louis Febre's hero motif in later Smallville seasons, and Blake Neely's Superman motif from Supergirl.

If people stop trying to innovate and just copy the past over and over, then creativity dies and culture becomes stagnant. The way to honor the great creations of the past is to carry forward the spirit of innovation that created them. We wouldn't have the Williams theme if Williams had just quoted Sammy Timberg. He took the essence of the past and created something new from it, rather than just copying it. We shouldn't deprive today's composers of the chance to create the next great Superman theme.

I think a lot of it has to do with Christopher Reeve's life after playing the character.
He became as beloved a 'character' as the DC character he played.
The John Williams theme is forever tied to his portrayal and folks will always remember him fondly when hearing that theme.
The 1978 movie isn't the only thing tied to that particular emotion.

I agree with Dave ...there are different factors which magnify the significance.


I would say the John Williams theme is just maybe a couple notches down from if you showed an average American a blank red cape, or an uncolored diamond without the the S, they would know who that represents.

If those visuals can be added to the over "essentials" to a character, why can't a sound?

That is entirely different than a theme specifically written for an unrelated production / continuity such as Williams theme. Star Trek is one continuity / universe. Superman is not, so its is not some official theme for a character by any stretch of the imagination. Any new Superman production needs its own identity.

It's not "official"....but millions recognize, far more than any other theme. Yeah, it needs its own identity. But if SUperman didn't have a red cape, an upside down diamond, and his name wasn't Clark Kent, you better believe there would be a whole lotta negativity.

Agreed; it was the most visually striking ever created for the character and you point out, alien in appearance, which was perfect for obvious reasons about the character. It matched the power and presence of Cavill as Superman, instead of looking like a loose diving suit, or rubber.





Quite true. Superman should appear to be physically powerful no matter what he's wearing--you just know power radiates from the character. So very few Superman actors ever captured that successfully, but Cavill did, setting the standard for Superman's form.



Without question.

Yeah, one reason I specified "the Donner film" rather than "the Reeve movies." Talking about what was actually finished and released.

"Superman had no choice but to kill Zod" is an argument I'm sympathetic to, but what really matters in comparing portrayals is that Snyder had an absolute free choice in deciding what story to tell.

What Snyder failed to do was create a basis for the character that we felt it would "hurt" him if he did. Like, if that happened after 3 seasons of SUpergirl or Flash, we could feel the emotion. But "no killing" didn't seem like a "rule" for CLark at that point.

Exactly. Snyder's fans overestimate both the originality of his visuals and his influence.

That said, Gunn has acknowledged using elements from every version of Superman he likes - the comics (specifically All-Star Superman) Reeve movies, and so on - including Snyder. Which is fine.

I think a good artist can take the best f the previous...that which might be ingrained in much of the culture, and then form something new, while also evoking nostalgia that older fans will embrace while letting new fas jump in. I think Raimi's SPiderman and the 1st season of the FLash did that, and helped drive their initial success.

View attachment 43584

 

[Mudd]

First tv spot:

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[TREK_GOD_1]

It's not "official"....but millions recognize, far more than any other theme. Yeah, it needs its own identity. But if SUperman didn't have a red cape, an upside down diamond, and his name wasn't Clark Kent, you better believe there would be a whole lotta negativity.

There are generations of moviegoers born during and after the '78 film who have no interest in or awareness of the film, or that music, and even if they did, that is no justification for using another artist's work as some sort of nonexistent representation for the identity / every version of the character. Again, a film that is not part of a shared continuity needs its own identity, much like one of Williams' truly great scores--1979's Dracula--took none of its themes from the previously most known / famous Dracula score, that being James Bernard's for 1958's Hammer classic, Horror of Dracula. Bernard's score was iconic and cherished to this day, but it--like the 1979 Williams score had to be creatively distinct for their equally distinct versions of the vampire. Obviously, that applies to Superman.

What Snyder failed to do was create a basis for the character that we felt it would "hurt" him if he did.

Not the case. He was visibly shaken by the act after doing it, falling to he knees and crying out, so Snyder captured what it meant to be forced into a deadly situation with no options, and its consequences. Anyone (not meaning you) saying Man of Steel's Superman somehow killed and did not care (did not watch the film, or have conned themselves into believing Superman must be some grinning caricature, thus they simply lie without end about the scene and the film's lead character overall.

 

[Mudd]

 

[Mage]

View attachment 43604

The only sensible thing that was posted in this topic since the teaser got dropped.

 

[Set Harth]

He tried to kick the football.