Yeah, that's a possibility. That's why I wrote that Prime Sulu is by all appearances heterosexual. Not the same thing as definitely heterosexual.
David Marcus - What did Kirk know and when did he know it?
- Thread starter JonnyQuest037
- Start date
Sulu being bisexual isn't a new idea in fandom. The people who write the fanfic stories accessed via the link in my sig have presented Sulu as bisexual ever since they first started writing these stories in the late 1970s. Their version of Sulu had relationships with both men and women, and eventually chose to marry a woman. They later had a son.
Yeah, but who isn't bi or gay in fanfic?
Most characters, actually. Slashfic is only a subgenre of fanfic. Most of the fanfic I read features adventure stories, and if there's romance, it's usually heterosexual relationships.
Although there is a rather cute series of stories about Seven of Nine and Samantha Wildman...
Clearly we haven't been reading from the same archives.
(Though my experience also includes fanzines, as I've been at this quite a while....) Off the top of my head, a list of same-sex pairs and threesomes I've seen in fanfic: Kirk/Spock (duh!), Spock/McCoy, Kirk/Spock/McCoy, Sulu/Chekov, Chapel/Uhura, Picard/Q, Picard/Riker, Geordi/Data, Crusher/Troi, Garak/Bashir, O'Brien/Bashir, Kira/Dax, Janeway/Seven, Janeway/Torres, Chakotay/Paris, Paris/Kim, Tucker/Reed, Archer/Tucker, Archer/Tucker/Reed, T'Pol/Hoshi.So yeah, quite a lot of characters who are gay or bi in fanfic.
I started collecting print 'zines back in the early/mid-'80s. I'm still collecting them (trying to complete my collections of Saurian Brandy Digest, Masiform-D, and maybe a dozen others. As mentioned, there are bi characters in the Valjiir stories (which began in print form and are now online), gay characters in that series, and of course there are plenty of others both in print and online (Tom/Chakotay 'shippers, anyone? There's a fanzine for that - and no, I haven't read it).Clearly we haven't been reading from the same archives.
So yeah, quite a lot of characters who are gay or bi in fanfic.
But it's by no means the majority of Star Trek fanfic, at least not that I've observed. I tend to prefer fanfiction.net, which seems to be stricter about what classifications people have to use for their stories, and they don't allow BDSM content like some other sites do. When I'm not reading Voyager stories on that site, I'm reading Bonanza stories - which mostly focus on adventure/romance (the Cartwright brothers actually get to marry, and the woman doesn't get sick/die/get murdered/go to prison/run off with another man/leave town for some other reason, etc.).
AO3 has some good content, although I'm not really into the Star Trek stuff there. That's where some people have written some really terrific stories based on C.J. Cherryh's Alliance-Union novels.
Oh no, I wouldn't say the majority of Trek fanfic is slash. Most of my own collection, and what I've read on-line, is general-interest, and what romance there is, is m/f. The majority of Trek characters, on the other hand, have definitely been slashed at one point or another.
I've read at least one.
My point is basically that it seems weird to see studios congratulating themselves for being so "progressive" and "edgy" when the fanfiction community beat them by over 45 years. That's one of the reasons I'm so underwhelmed by some of the movies and Spock's foster sister (or whatever the hell her place is in that family). It's already been done decades ago - including Kirk-has-a-long-lost-son-with (fill in the blank) predating TWoK by at least ten years.Fair enough. I'm not necessarily in a rush, but we do have a whole forum dedicated to fan fiction.
As for what did Kirk know and when regarding David... the only novels I recall reading that included David were the movie tie-ins. So that and the movies themselves are what I'm going by when I say that it makes sense that Kirk knew Carol was pregnant early on, she made it clear to him that she didn't want him in her life or David's (for a number of reasons), and that because he knew she could provide for the child and trusted her to be a fit parent, he honored her wishes and stayed away.
He probably expected her to tell David about him at some point (that he was David's father), but was unpleasantly surprised to discover in TWoK that she hadn't.
I must say I'm a bit surprised at how lopsided the voting ended up being. I was expecting it to be more evenly divided.
I'm not surprised, myself. I think it's a combination of at least a couple of factors. One, both Kirk and Carol seem like decent people, and therefore most of us probably prefer to assume that they were honest with each other early on. Two, that's how it's been presented in assorted licensed stories, and people have presumably read and remembered those even if they're not "canon."
Wow, 17 pages. Impressive. I'm sure you all know the scene was scripted and shot with NOBODY except Carol knowing that Kirk was the father. The studio hated that when they saw the rough cut (which a few of us have seen) and they ordered it re-shot to imply that Kirk (and probably McCoy and Spock) knew. The scene where Kirk says, "Why didn't you tell him?" was re-shot as well as you can clearly see from the slightly different background behind him from all the other shots where he is sitting there.
So the answer is in the original cut scene he did not know and in the reshot scene he certainly did.
Here's the scene as originally scripted and shot...…...
BONES
Genesis, I presume.
They walk by a group of crates. It all happens very
fast: David leaps out and tackles Kirk, throwing him to
the ground and landing atop him, a knife at his throat.
At the same time, Bones and Saavik reach for their
phasers, but Jedda, already armed, steps out. He has
them covered and helpless.
125 ANGLE FAVORING DAVID 125
DAVID
You're the sonavabitch who
committed mass murder up there.
He raises the knife --
KIRK
I'm Admiral Kirk...
DAVID
We were still there, you dumb
bastard! We could hear the screams
all the way to the transporter room --
Again he raises the knife --
KIRK
Where's Dr. Marcus --
DAVID
I'm Doctor Marcus!
Carol reaches the tunnel entrance to the cave --
CAROL
David --
DAVID
Mother, go back!
Carol sees Kirk --
CAROL
Jim --
DAVID
Go back. I'm going to kill him.
CAROL
(takes a breath)
You do that and you'll have murdered
your father.
All react. David and Kirk, facing each other, are
turned to stone. Bones, Jedda and Chekov turn to look
at Carol, wondering. Terrell very casually takes the
phaser from Jedda.
126 NEW ANGLE (FORMERLY SCENE 134) 126
TERRELL
(cool)
I'll hold onto this.
But Kirk and Carol ignore them and walk towards each
other. There are tears in Carol's eyes. She reaches
up, trying to smile and touches his hair --
CAROL
You've got a little grey --
She can't. Kirk takes her and holds her tightly, look-
ing at David, over her shoulder. He stands there,
stunned, looking back.
KIRK
Carol. Is that true?
She nods --
KIRK
(continuing)
Why didn't you tell me?
DAVID
She's making it up! My father was
Professor --
CAROL
David, you're just making this
harder --
TERRELL
I'm afraid it's even harder than you
think, Doctor.
So the answer is in the original cut scene he did not know and in the reshot scene he certainly did.
Here's the scene as originally scripted and shot...…...
BONES
Genesis, I presume.
They walk by a group of crates. It all happens very
fast: David leaps out and tackles Kirk, throwing him to
the ground and landing atop him, a knife at his throat.
At the same time, Bones and Saavik reach for their
phasers, but Jedda, already armed, steps out. He has
them covered and helpless.
125 ANGLE FAVORING DAVID 125
DAVID
You're the sonavabitch who
committed mass murder up there.
He raises the knife --
KIRK
I'm Admiral Kirk...
DAVID
We were still there, you dumb
bastard! We could hear the screams
all the way to the transporter room --
Again he raises the knife --
KIRK
Where's Dr. Marcus --
DAVID
I'm Doctor Marcus!
Carol reaches the tunnel entrance to the cave --
CAROL
David --
DAVID
Mother, go back!
Carol sees Kirk --
CAROL
Jim --
DAVID
Go back. I'm going to kill him.
CAROL
(takes a breath)
You do that and you'll have murdered
your father.
All react. David and Kirk, facing each other, are
turned to stone. Bones, Jedda and Chekov turn to look
at Carol, wondering. Terrell very casually takes the
phaser from Jedda.
126 NEW ANGLE (FORMERLY SCENE 134) 126
TERRELL
(cool)
I'll hold onto this.
But Kirk and Carol ignore them and walk towards each
other. There are tears in Carol's eyes. She reaches
up, trying to smile and touches his hair --
CAROL
You've got a little grey --
She can't. Kirk takes her and holds her tightly, look-
ing at David, over her shoulder. He stands there,
stunned, looking back.
KIRK
Carol. Is that true?
She nods --
KIRK
(continuing)
Why didn't you tell me?
DAVID
She's making it up! My father was
Professor --
CAROL
David, you're just making this
harder --
TERRELL
I'm afraid it's even harder than you
think, Doctor.
I wonder how many other kids Kirk has that are still unknown ... I'm guessing quite a few!
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