David Marcus - What did Kirk know and when did he know it?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by JonnyQuest037, Apr 6, 2018.

?

When did Kirk find out that David was his son?

  1. Before TOS

    48.5%
  2. During TOS

    11.8%
  3. After TOS

    22.1%
  4. During TWOK

    17.6%
  1. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Location:
    Verona, New Jersey, USA
    Yeah, that's a possibility. That's why I wrote that Prime Sulu is by all appearances heterosexual. Not the same thing as definitely heterosexual.
     
  2. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    Sulu being bisexual isn't a new idea in fandom. The people who write the fanfic stories accessed via the link in my sig have presented Sulu as bisexual ever since they first started writing these stories in the late 1970s. Their version of Sulu had relationships with both men and women, and eventually chose to marry a woman. They later had a son.
     
  3. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Location:
    Verona, New Jersey, USA
    Yeah, but who isn't bi or gay in fanfic?
     
  4. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    Most characters, actually. Slashfic is only a subgenre of fanfic. Most of the fanfic I read features adventure stories, and if there's romance, it's usually heterosexual relationships.

    Although there is a rather cute series of stories about Seven of Nine and Samantha Wildman...
     
  5. Brennyren

    Brennyren Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA, USA
    Clearly we haven't been reading from the same archives. ;) (Though my experience also includes fanzines, as I've been at this quite a while....) Off the top of my head, a list of same-sex pairs and threesomes I've seen in fanfic: Kirk/Spock (duh!), Spock/McCoy, Kirk/Spock/McCoy, Sulu/Chekov, Chapel/Uhura, Picard/Q, Picard/Riker, Geordi/Data, Crusher/Troi, Garak/Bashir, O'Brien/Bashir, Kira/Dax, Janeway/Seven, Janeway/Torres, Chakotay/Paris, Paris/Kim, Tucker/Reed, Archer/Tucker, Archer/Tucker/Reed, T'Pol/Hoshi.

    So yeah, quite a lot of characters who are gay or bi in fanfic.
     
    JonnyQuest037 likes this.
  6. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    I started collecting print 'zines back in the early/mid-'80s. I'm still collecting them (trying to complete my collections of Saurian Brandy Digest, Masiform-D, and maybe a dozen others. As mentioned, there are bi characters in the Valjiir stories (which began in print form and are now online), gay characters in that series, and of course there are plenty of others both in print and online (Tom/Chakotay 'shippers, anyone? There's a fanzine for that - and no, I haven't read it).

    But it's by no means the majority of Star Trek fanfic, at least not that I've observed. I tend to prefer fanfiction.net, which seems to be stricter about what classifications people have to use for their stories, and they don't allow BDSM content like some other sites do. When I'm not reading Voyager stories on that site, I'm reading Bonanza stories - which mostly focus on adventure/romance (the Cartwright brothers actually get to marry, and the woman doesn't get sick/die/get murdered/go to prison/run off with another man/leave town for some other reason, etc.).

    AO3 has some good content, although I'm not really into the Star Trek stuff there. That's where some people have written some really terrific stories based on C.J. Cherryh's Alliance-Union novels.
     
  7. Brennyren

    Brennyren Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA, USA
    Oh no, I wouldn't say the majority of Trek fanfic is slash. Most of my own collection, and what I've read on-line, is general-interest, and what romance there is, is m/f. The majority of Trek characters, on the other hand, have definitely been slashed at one point or another.
    I've read at least one. :devil:
     
  8. 1001001

    1001001 Serial Canon Violator Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Location:
    Undisclosed Fortified Compound
    Okay we're pretty far from Kirk and David. Has this thread finally, mercifully run its course?
     
  9. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    I rather thought the issues that came up were kind of interesting...not something I've seen discussed before. But I take your meaning.
     
  10. 1001001

    1001001 Serial Canon Violator Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Location:
    Undisclosed Fortified Compound
    Fair enough. I'm not necessarily in a rush, but we do have a whole forum dedicated to fan fiction.

    :techman:
     
    DonIago and The Old Mixer like this.
  11. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    My point is basically that it seems weird to see studios congratulating themselves for being so "progressive" and "edgy" when the fanfiction community beat them by over 45 years. That's one of the reasons I'm so underwhelmed by some of the movies and Spock's foster sister (or whatever the hell her place is in that family). It's already been done decades ago - including Kirk-has-a-long-lost-son-with (fill in the blank) predating TWoK by at least ten years.

    As for what did Kirk know and when regarding David... the only novels I recall reading that included David were the movie tie-ins. So that and the movies themselves are what I'm going by when I say that it makes sense that Kirk knew Carol was pregnant early on, she made it clear to him that she didn't want him in her life or David's (for a number of reasons), and that because he knew she could provide for the child and trusted her to be a fit parent, he honored her wishes and stayed away.

    He probably expected her to tell David about him at some point (that he was David's father), but was unpleasantly surprised to discover in TWoK that she hadn't.
     
    lawman likes this.
  12. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Location:
    Verona, New Jersey, USA
    Hurtful, @1001001. Hurtful. :weep:;)
     
    1001001 likes this.
  13. Shawnster

    Shawnster Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2008
    Location:
    Clinton, OH
    Starfleet / military or Federation /money are corollaries of Godwin's Law
     
  14. lawman

    lawman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Nah. There's a difference between lively recurring topics (those encourage discussion!), and comparing someone to Hitler (that shuts it down!).
     
    JonnyQuest037 likes this.
  15. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Location:
    Verona, New Jersey, USA
    I must say I'm a bit surprised at how lopsided the voting ended up being. I was expecting it to be more evenly divided.
     
  16. lawman

    lawman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    I'm not surprised, myself. I think it's a combination of at least a couple of factors. One, both Kirk and Carol seem like decent people, and therefore most of us probably prefer to assume that they were honest with each other early on. Two, that's how it's been presented in assorted licensed stories, and people have presumably read and remembered those even if they're not "canon."
     
    JonnyQuest037 likes this.
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    I think at least part of it was that there was some confusion over Kirk's line as well, which drastically changes things.
     
    JonnyQuest037 likes this.
  18. Green

    Green Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Wow, 17 pages. Impressive. I'm sure you all know the scene was scripted and shot with NOBODY except Carol knowing that Kirk was the father. The studio hated that when they saw the rough cut (which a few of us have seen) and they ordered it re-shot to imply that Kirk (and probably McCoy and Spock) knew. The scene where Kirk says, "Why didn't you tell him?" was re-shot as well as you can clearly see from the slightly different background behind him from all the other shots where he is sitting there.
    So the answer is in the original cut scene he did not know and in the reshot scene he certainly did.

    Here's the scene as originally scripted and shot...…...

    BONES
    Genesis, I presume.

    They walk by a group of crates. It all happens very
    fast: David leaps out and tackles Kirk, throwing him to
    the ground and landing atop him, a knife at his throat.

    At the same time, Bones and Saavik reach for their
    phasers, but Jedda, already armed, steps out. He has
    them covered and helpless.

    125 ANGLE FAVORING DAVID 125

    DAVID
    You're the sonavabitch who
    committed mass murder up there.

    He raises the knife --

    KIRK
    I'm Admiral Kirk...

    DAVID
    We were still there, you dumb
    bastard! We could hear the screams
    all the way to the transporter room --

    Again he raises the knife --

    KIRK
    Where's Dr. Marcus --

    DAVID
    I'm Doctor Marcus!

    Carol reaches the tunnel entrance to the cave --

    CAROL
    David --

    DAVID
    Mother, go back!

    Carol sees Kirk --

    CAROL
    Jim --

    DAVID
    Go back. I'm going to kill him.

    CAROL
    (takes a breath)
    You do that and you'll have murdered
    your father.

    All react. David and Kirk, facing each other, are
    turned to stone. Bones, Jedda and Chekov turn to look
    at Carol, wondering. Terrell very casually takes the
    phaser from Jedda.

    126 NEW ANGLE (FORMERLY SCENE 134) 126

    TERRELL
    (cool)
    I'll hold onto this.

    But Kirk and Carol ignore them and walk towards each
    other. There are tears in Carol's eyes. She reaches
    up, trying to smile and touches his hair --

    CAROL
    You've got a little grey --

    She can't. Kirk takes her and holds her tightly, look-
    ing at David, over her shoulder. He stands there,
    stunned, looking back.

    KIRK
    Carol. Is that true?

    She nods --

    KIRK
    (continuing)
    Why didn't you tell me?

    DAVID
    She's making it up! My father was
    Professor --

    CAROL
    David, you're just making this
    harder --

    TERRELL
    I'm afraid it's even harder than you
    think, Doctor.
     
  19. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2017
    Probably thinking because people liked the twist in Empire.
     
  20. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Location:
    California, USA
    I wonder how many other kids Kirk has that are still unknown ... I'm guessing quite a few!