David Marcus - What did Kirk know and when did he know it?

[Crazy Eddie]

Unless he took a career break wherever his daughter resided, Sulu still managed to have career in Starfleet and be at least a known father to his child. And that daughter was a retcon like David.

Sure, but it's easier to take a "career break" when you're not on a five-year mission far out in deep space. We don't know what Sulu was doing in the years before Wrath of Khan, but chances are he WASN'T out on the frontier pushing the borders of Federation knowledge; even Kirk, at that point, had been relegated to a desk job, Spock was teaching at the academy and Chekov was first officer on Reliant.

Kirk simply reached the captaincy three decades earlier than Sulu did, so Sulu had 20 years to take responsibility for a child before he had to take responsibility for an entire starship. Kirk didn't have that time, and he probably wouldn't have succeeded in splitting those responsibilities if he'd tried.

 

[Nyotarules]

^Kelvin Sulu seems to have a working system.....

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^Kelvin Sulu seems to have a working system.....

Possibly so, but Kelvin Sulu's daughter is evidently OLDER than David Marcus, so the situation is probably somewhat different. It's anyone's guess how that will work out for them, if it will work out at all.

A better question is whether or not Kelvin Kirk will have the same choices as his prime counterpart. Carol Marcus is a Starfleet officer with close ties to Section 31 in this timeline; there isn't a "your world and mine" situation here, it's a "Your starbase or mine" in this case. That makes it far more similar to how Kirk (and for that matter, Carol) grew up. Expectations are different.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Assuming Carol doesn't transfer off the Enterprise, she and Kirk definitely could raise David together. I don't think she would have to transfer, as Starfleet has no rules against fraternization that I'm aware of.

Although I doubt this will ever happen. Kelvin's Kirk and Carol don't seem to like each other at all, so I find it unlikely there would ever be a Kelvinverse David.

Was the Enterprise the first ship on a five year mission or was it a Starfleet norm?

That...is a very good question. Which has never been answered, AFAIK...

 

[UssGlenn]

Was the Enterprise the first ship on a five year mission or was it a Starfleet norm?

That...is a very good question. Which has never been answered, AFAIK...

They mention in "Into Darkness" that the upcomong 5 year mission is the first of it's kind.

MCCOY: Five years in space. God help me.
.....
SPOCK: As a mission of this duration has never been attempted, I defer to your good judgement, Captain.

Back in the Prime universe Icheb calls Kirk's 5 year mission "historic"

Finally, in the year 2270, Kirk completed his historic five year mission and one of the greatest chapters in Starfleet history came to a close.

He doesn't say it was the first 5 year mission.

 

[Nyotarules]

Possibly so, but Kelvin Sulu's daughter is evidently OLDER than David Marcus, so the situation is probably somewhat different. It's anyone's guess how that will work out for them, if it will work out at all.

True but Sulu became a father when he joined Starfleet, his partner does not decide to cut him off from parenting due to his career choices. However their daughter could be recently adopted, so I give you that.
So far Kelvin Kirk and Marcus are not a couple, she was never mentioned in STB so if she did leave the ship pregnant Kirk must be ignorant of the situation...again(?)

 

[The Old Mixer]

And yet they have real time subspace communications.

Not in TOS, they didn't.

 

[Nyotarules]

Not in TOS, they didn't.

In Amok Time when Admiral Morrow speaks to Kirk is that a prerecorded message?

 

[thribs]

Not in TOS, they didn't.

I'm sure they do. It's just in TOS, Kirk spent most of his time in unexplored space and those would be too far away to receive real-time messages.
Remember that when they hail another starship, that's a real-time subspace communication.

 

[The Old Mixer]

In Amok Time when Admiral Morrow speaks to Kirk is that a prerecorded message?

Did Kirk respond to him in realtime? In TOS, subspace communication over interstellar distances was usually depicted as having lag...sometimes in the order of weeks. Any signal that travels a finite speed would experience lag when transmitted over interstellar distances, just as lightspeed communications have lag when transmitting interplanetary distances. The light we see from our own Sun is eight minutes old.

This is something that TOS got right, and it made space feel bigger.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

True but Sulu became a father when he joined Starfleet, his partner does not decide to cut him off from parenting due to his career choices.

Again, it's different with Sulu because of the difference in ages. Prime Demora is too young and Sulu is too low of a rank for his prolonged absence to be that big of a factor. Kelvin version is a little different, and it's not entirely clear if that arrangement is as stable as it was in the primeverse.

So far Kelvin Kirk and Marcus are not a couple, she was never mentioned in STB so if she did leave the ship pregnant Kirk must be ignorant of the situation...again(?)

Only time and/or novels will tell...

 

[thribs]

The comics must explain her situation. I haven’t read them in 5 years or so but I’d like to assume that they were a couple there. Perhaps the reason Kirk is so depressed at the beginning of Beyond has a little to do with her leaving.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Did Kirk respond to him in realtime? In TOS, subspace communication over interstellar distances was usually depicted as having lag...sometimes in the order of weeks. Any signal that travels a finite speed would experience lag when transmitted over interstellar distances, just as lightspeed communications have lag when transmitting interplanetary distances. The light we see from our own Sun is eight minutes old.

This is something that TOS got right, and it made space feel bigger.

Needs of the plot situation. In Amok Time it's real time.

KOMACK [on monitor]: Captain, you're making a most unusual request.
KIRK: I'm aware of that, sir, but it's of the utmost importance. You must give me permission to divert to Vulcan.
KOMACK [on monitor]: But you refuse to explain why it is so important.
KIRK: I can't, sir, but believe me, I wouldn't make such a request
KOMACK [on monitor]: Altair Six is no ordinary matter. That area is just putting itself together after a long interplanetary conflict. This inauguration will stabilise the entire Altair system. Our appearance there is a demonstration of friendship and strength which will cause ripples clear to the Klingon Empire.
KIRK: Sir, the delay would be, at most, a day. I can hardly believe that
KOMACK [on monitor]: You will proceed to Altair Six as ordered. You have your orders. Starfleet out.

 

[Nerys Myk]

An Admiral also communicates in real time in The Mark of Gideon

ADMIRAL [on viewscreen]: I sympathize deeply, but Starfleet cannot override Federation directives in this matter.
SPOCK: Admiral, the crew will not understand it.
ADMIRAL [on viewscreen]: Has your crew suddenly become interested in provoking a war? That is not Starfleet's mission.
SPOCK: We wish only to save the life of the captain.
ADMIRAL [on viewscreen]: You have not proved your case to the Federation, or to Starfleet, for that matter.
SPOCK: I am positive that I can do so to your satisfaction, Admiral. I have been convinced, since my first exchange with the ambassador, that the captain has been taken prisoner.
ADMIRAL [on viewscreen]: Granted as fact, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: I now know where the captain is being held, if he is being held at the same place to which we transported him.
ADMIRAL [on viewscreen]: They would not dare harm him in the Gideon council chamber.
SPOCK: Sir, the captain is not being held in the Gideon council chamber. He is being held nearby.
ADMIRAL [on viewscreen]: You have answered what and where. I'm waiting for your explanation of why.
SPOCK: Since the planet is shielded from our sensors, we cannot establish that without on the spot investigation.
ADMIRAL [on viewscreen]: Do you have evidence the captain's life is threatened? Permission denied.
SPOCK: Admiral, I wish to state for the record that your decision is completely arbitrary.
ADMIRAL [on viewscreen]: So noted.

And Admiral Fitzpatrick in Trouble With Tribbles

KIRK: Yes, what is it?
UHURA [OC]: Message from Starfleet, Captain. Priority channel. Admiral Fitzpatrick speaking.
KIRK: Put it on visual, Lieutenant.
ADMIRAL [on monitor]: Captain Kirk?
KIRK: Kirk here.
ADMIRAL [on monitor]: Captain, it is not necessary to remind you of the importance to the Federation of Sherman's Planet. The key to our winning of this planet is the grain quadrotriticale. The shipment of it must be protected. Effective immediately, you will render any aid and assistance which Undersecretary Baris may require. The safety of the grain and the project is your responsibility. Starfleet out.

 

[Shawnster]

So...being a father means telling Carol "Screw off, I'm going to stick around whether you want me to or not"?

No, it's called "I'll see you in court.." it's called suing for visitation rights. People do it every year.

Trying to force your way into your child's life when the mother doesn't want you there? Yeah, kinda.

I mean, on a practical level, what would you have had him do? Press his face up to the windows? Send anonymous gifts? File for custody in court? Yeah, I can see how that would have improved David's childhood...

I'd like to see the people who are criticizing Jim for his decision to respect Carol's wishes propose a constructive alternative. Because I can certainly say that if he'd resigned his commission he may have just ended up resenting Carol and David for that, which wouldn't have improved anything.

See above. The legal method has been in place for a long time. Custody battles are nothing new. And they are meant to prevent the scenario you describe.

 

[lawman]

Deadbeat as in absent and uncaring, not in the financial sense.

Absent, yes. But why assume uncaring? He was absent because he was asked to be. Carol had custody. Should he have challenged her on that, even though he knew David would have a fine upbringing?

I think with a kid Kirk would rather be there than spend 5 years of his life away taking crazy risks across the galaxy.

It seems unlikely that Kirk was the only starship captain with a kid back home... so how were the risks any crazier than if he didn't have one? And, seriously, how is expanding the frontiers of human knowledge and saving countless lives along the way not a legitimate alternative to devoting himself to the upbringing of one single child?

If he was my child, I would not be "forcing myself into his life". I would be parenting. Regardless of what the mother wanted, it's my child and she cannot lift that obligation from me even if she wants to.

Sure she can. If she tells you "stay away," you have exactly two choices: (1) cooperate, or (2) go to court over it. Unless you think the mother is an unfit parent and you can materially improve the child's life, I can't imagine why you'd choose option 2. Certainly if the child is old enough to recognize what's going on, seeing his (or her) parents locked in a court battle over him isn't going to do much for his emotional well-being.

Honestly, I can't believe that anyone thinks otherwise. Seems to me that it was summed up in a single sentence in a post upthread: Kirk was neither wanted nor needed in David's life. He recognized that simple fact, so he cooperated and stayed away.

I think for me that's the crux of it. If the Kirk we saw in TOS secretly had a child he was aware of and wasn't involved with raising... Well, that's a very different character, isn't it?

How so? We know McCoy had a daughter he was aware of and wasn't involved with raising. Do we think any less of him for that?

Im gobsmacked at the number of people who do not understand why people are upset at Kirk being portrayed as an absentee father. Yes the moral standards today are different than the 60s, and will be different in the 23rd century. But we are relating to this story in the context of our lives now and the reality is plenty of children have absentee parents and do not feel happy about that situation. In fact, they are painfully aware of the absence. To have Kirk painted as such only serves to tarnish the character.

I'm gobsmacked at anyone who thinks it "tarnishes the character." Your observation of reality is selective; even today there are plenty of children who have an absentee parent and are perfectly happy with that situation. Moreover, one of the main reasons we in the present think that (all else equal) it's better to have both parents involved is that it's easier to manage the financial burden of childraising that way — a burden that (as we've already discussed) simply is not a factor in Star Trek's 23rd century.

No, it's called "I'll see you in court.." it's called suing for visitation rights. People do it every year.

And what possible better outcome could that have produced for anyone involved — David, or Kirk, or Carol?

 

[Commishsleer]

TWOK was made in the 80s and maybe it was acceptable then for a man to stay out of his child's life if the mother (he was not married to and couldn't prove fatherhood) didn't want him in it.

If TWOK were made now (in 2010s) it wouldn't be acceptable as paternity can be proven and studies have shown that it is much better for a child to have two parents in their life if possible.
Courts nowadays would insist on the other parent having significant access or even equal access if possible. Kirk's fly-in fly-out status wouldn't restrict him and the courts would probably enforce space-skype sessions as well as significant physical access when Kirk was on leave on Earth.

And some kids are perfectly fine with an absent parent but its heartbreaking for a lot of them - to think that their father/mother couldn't be bothered with them. In my experience an absent/uninterested father has been detrimental to most of the children I know in that situation.

 

[Brennyren]

If she tells you "stay away," you have exactly two choices: (1) cooperate, or (2) go to court over it. Unless you think the mother is an unfit parent and you can materially improve the child's life, I can't imagine why you'd choose option 2.

Maybe he wants his child to know that he loves the child, that the child matters. Maybe he wants to be part of his child's life. Unless he's an unfit parent (for example, an abusive one), why would it be better for him to stay out of the child's life?

Kirk was neither wanted nor needed in David's life. He recognized that simple fact, so he cooperated and stayed away.

Neither wanted nor needed by Carol. I am still not clear on why the mother's voice should be the only one that matters.

How so? We know McCoy had a daughter he was aware of and wasn't involved with raising. Do we think any less of him for that?

In fact, we don't know either: that he had a daughter or that, if he did, he wasn't part of her life. Prime-Universe McCoy was in his 40s when we met him; even if he had a daughter (which was not established in Prime canon), she could well have been grown by the time of the 5-year mission. And if she was not, he could still have remained in contact with her.

But to answer the substance of your question: if we knew that he had a daughter and wasn't involved in her rearing, then yes, I would certainly think less of him.

And some kids are perfectly fine with an absent parent but its heartbreaking for a lot of them - to think that their father/mother couldn't be bothered with them. In my experience an absent/uninterested father has been detrimental to most of the children I know in that situation.

So much this, and it's affected too many of the people in my life.

Honestly, the only way I can see the whole David Marcus thing without thinking less of Kirk is if I choose to believe that he didn't know he was David's father until WoK -- a premise that's at best questionably supported by the text. I still think less of Carol, but Carol is a one-shot character who matters less to me.

 

[1001001]

Sure she can. If she tells you "stay away," you have exactly two choices: (1) cooperate, or (2) go to court over it. Unless you think the mother is an unfit parent and you can materially improve the child's life, I can't imagine why you'd choose option 2. Certainly if the child is old enough to recognize what's going on, seeing his (or her) parents locked in a court battle over him isn't going to do much for his emotional well-being.

Honestly, I can't believe that anyone thinks otherwise.

Fair enough. I feel the same way.

My relationship to my child is not just through the mother. It is direct. I am responsible for his life. It is an obligation I cannot give up, regardless of what someone else wants (didn't you see The Offspring?). It has nothing to do with her being unfit (where'd that even come from?). Whether or not I can "materially improve the child's life"? What does that even mean? Of course I can improve his life: I'M HIS DAD!!!

The very idea that mom says "I don't want you in his life" and that's it is total bullshit.

Now that's not to say there can't be an arrangement that's healthy and satisfactory. An arrangement that respects the reality of dad being in space for long periods of time. And certainly no one here is talking about fighting Carol for custody (that's just stupid). But to say "Mom wants me out of the picture so I'm abandoning my son forever" is beyond ridiculous. And painting that as some noble gesture is a kind of moral gymnastics that make us all look bad. It's a shame they burdened Kirk's character with such a bad decision, but again, they wedged a kid in where one didn't exist before, so...

 

[Nyotarules]

How so? We know McCoy had a daughter he was aware of and wasn't involved with raising. Do we think any less of him for that?

Great doctor, great Starfleet officer, lousy father, (Probably lousy husband material as well)

If TWOK were made now (in 2010s) it wouldn't be acceptable as paternity can be proven and studies have shown that it is much better for a child to have two parents in their life if possible.

(Applause) Treating fathers as if they are no more than sperm donors, if I were a father I would find that insulting. As a mother I find it insulting! Would folks find it acceptable if Kirk were female/the biological mother and Marcus male/the biological father?

Parenting is more than being a financial asset to a child.