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David Marcus - What did Kirk know and when did he know it?

When did Kirk find out that David was his son?


  • Total voters
    68
Trying to force your way into your child's life when the mother doesn't want you there? Yeah, kinda.

I mean, on a practical level, what would you have had him do? Press his face up to the windows? Send anonymous gifts? File for custody in court? Yeah, I can see how that would have improved David's childhood...

I'd like to see the people who are criticizing Jim for his decision to respect Carol's wishes propose a constructive alternative. Because I can certainly say that if he'd resigned his commission he may have just ended up resenting Carol and David for that, which wouldn't have improved anything.

Again, there's that word, "force".

You cannot "force" your way into your own child's life. HE'S...YOUR...CHILD. I don't care if the mother "wishes" me not to be involved. That's not to say if we're not together, a reasonable arrangement couldn't be made.

A "constructive alternative"? I bet there are thousands of children right now who's parents are divorced (or otherwise not together), and one parent is serving in the military. Do their parents never write? Call? Send birthday presents? Visit while on leave? Do the kids not know their parent is because it's inconvenient?

Again, in the film it doesn't really matter because, well, nothing does. It's all pretend. Kirk isn't a bad guy. As has already been stated, they wedged a son in where one hadn't been before. They had to explain it somehow. That's all.
 
The scene in TWOK shows that Neither recognize each other initially. Kirk definitely doesn't recognize David. If he'd ever seen David, it's been so long ago that Kirk had to ask if he was David.
Well, probably the last time Kirk saw him he was a kid; the NEXT time Kirk saw him, he was coming after him with a knife. Not exactly the best circumstances for recognition.

David DOES seem to recognize Kirk; after his first (utterly spastic) attempt to jump him fails he squares off and mutters "You!"

Im gobsmacked at the number of people who do not understand why people are upset at Kirk being portrayed as an absentee father.
That's just it, he wasn't "absentee" at all, David knew who he was and Kirk knew who HE was. He had obviously been present at some point, just didn't raise him and wasn't involved in the family.

In either case, not sure how that makes a difference considering that this is a thing that happens often enough in real life, even more so in military families.

we are relating to this story in the context of our lives now and the reality is plenty of children have absentee parents and do not feel happy about that situation. In fact, they are painfully aware of the absence.
And then there are children who never notice the absence because their main parent makes sure their emotional, physical and psychological needs are fully met. And then there are parents whose absence is felt strongly even though they never actually go anywhere. All of these are various permutations of how families develop for real people.

David doesn't seem to have missed Kirk all that much, in fact his problem with Kirk seems to be by reputation rather than anything personal. On finding out that Kirk isn't the Good Soldier Flag Waving Prick he always assumed him to be, David basically apologizes to him for misjudging him. That's not the actions of somebody who has issues with being abandoned, that's the actions of a secure and well-adjusted person simply changing his mind about someone else.

The objection that Kirk respected Carol's wishes doesn't change the fact Kirk was an absentee parent.
To be sure, it's unlikely Kirk was ever actually a PARENT in that sense. Carol didn't want or need him to take responsibility for David and specifically told him not to.

More importantly, what was he supposed to do instead? Break into her house with a phaser and demand she let him take David on the Enterprise for years at a time? How exactly is that supposed to work?

Kirk could have fought to see David and be a part of his life. It is called being a father.
Well, no, that's called being an asshole. Insisting on having a presence in someone's life when your presence is neither wanted or needed, and when said presence is actually completely incompatible with the most fundamental facts of your existence. Kirk's career would have taken him into deep space for years at a time where the only contact he would have with David would be a few subspace messages and an occasional visit every couple of years when the Enterprise happened to be on Earth. AND you're suggesting that Kirk specifically disobey Carol's wishes -- her, the parent who is actually raising him and responsible for him on a day to day basis and is the only full time parent he has -- to force a relationship he is in no position to invest in and cannot actually benefit either of them? I'm afraid not; Kirk's only possible reason for forcing that situation would be to give the appearance of "owning his responsibilities" and reconciling his own conscience, which would still fail to meet David and Carol's needs and would accomplish nothing except to soothe his own ego.
 
You cannot "force" your way into your own child's life. HE'S...YOUR...CHILD.
There are literally millions of people in the world who would argue that, yes, you can. In fact, I know of a man who will literally spend the rest of his life in prison if ever goes within 500 feet of his children, as per the restraining order he was slapped with when he threw one of them down a flight of stairs and beat the other one with a skillet. If he ever sees his children again, it will be because he forced them to.

Just hanging around and being there isn't your responsibility. Your responsibility as a parent is to contribute positively to your child's life. If you cannot make a positive contribution, then your better option is to NOT be there at all and refrain from setting up expectations you cannot meet.

A "constructive alternative"? I bet there are thousands of children right now who's parents are divorced (or otherwise not together), and one parent is serving in the military. Do their parents never write? Call? Send birthday presents? Visit while on leave? Do the kids not know their parent is because it's inconvenient?
My mother in law never knew her biological father until she was in college. She knew OF him, but had never been in the same room with him more than once or twice. She has always described meeting him for the first time as "surprisingly disappointing." Mainly this is because her stepfather was an incredibly awesome and devoted father and her biological father was a massive disappointment by comparison.

Having a shitty parent is NOT preferable to having an absent one.
 
There are literally millions of people in the world who would argue that, yes, you can. In fact, I know of a man who will literally spend the rest of his life in prison if ever goes within 500 feet of his children, as per the restraining order he was slapped with when he threw one of them down a flight of stairs and beat the other one with a skillet. If he ever sees his children again, it will be because he forced them to.

Just hanging around and being there isn't your responsibility. Your responsibility as a parent is to contribute positively to your child's life. If you cannot make a positive contribution, then your better option is to NOT be there at all and refrain from setting up expectations you cannot meet.


My mother in law never knew her biological father until she was in college. She knew OF him, but had never been in the same room with him more than once or twice. She has always described meeting him for the first time as "surprisingly disappointing." Mainly this is because her stepfather was an incredibly awesome and devoted father and her biological father was a massive disappointment by comparison.

Having a shitty parent is NOT preferable to having an absent one.

Talk about a false dichotomy.

Why does it have to be "absent" or "shitty"? And the examples you give are ridiculous outliers that prove nothing. Pushed his kids down the stairs? Jesus...

Any attempt to justify abandoning your own child is going to be pretty self-serving. It's actually pretty tortured logic: "I'd be such a bad parent that I'm doing the right thing by not being in my child's life." You've actually created a scenario where I'm the good guy for abandoning my child. "Look at me! I'm a good person because I spared my child the burden of knowing me."

That dog don't hunt.

Again, none of that really applies to this particular situation, for all the reasons that have been given repeatedly in this thread.
 
Always seemed rather bizarre to me that Carol kept David away from Kirk because of his job. Should have allowed him to see him during his breaks etc.
Shame that he was killed before he could spawn, effectively killing the Kirk line.
Kirk had a nephew named Peter Kirk
 
Many people here seem to place unreasonably high significance to biological parenthood. Kirk did what Carol wanted and David was fine (well, until he got killed.) Some people seem to think that Kirk should have forced himself in David's life against Carol's wishes...

In that case Carol's wishes should not trump Kirk's. Custody is based on what is best for the child, not what is best or convenient for one of the parents. Its not about biology, if she was David's adopted mother, I would still disagree with her decision.

Trying to force your way into your child's life when the mother doesn't want you there? Yeah, kinda.....Because I can certainly say that if he'd resigned his commission he may have just ended up resenting Carol and David for that, which wouldn't have improved anything.......

Yeah its called filing for custody, happens every day in family courts. Next time he might try the ancient contraceptive remedy called 'Condoms'

A "constructive alternative"? I bet there are thousands of children right now who's parents are divorced (or otherwise not together), and one parent is serving in the military. Do their parents never write? Call? Send birthday presents? Visit while on leave? Do the kids not know their parent is because it's inconvenient?]
:bolian: I have a male cousin, once he discovered an old girlfriend had his child, took a paternity test to confirm he was the father and went to court to get access to his child, both father and daughter have a great relationship. The daughter met and keeps in contact with her paternal family. The selfish mother wanted him out of the picture, she lost her case.
I have female friends who cannot stand their ex partners, (the break up was bitter, nasty, you name it) but the mothers are mature enough to recognise its not about them and the father has access to his children as it should be.

There is no hint that Kirk is or would be abusive to children, Carol's only objection to him is his career in Starfleet, the defacto military/NASA of the Federation.
As has been stated plenty of people in RL navy, army etc are divorced parents and no one considers that a good reason for them to walk away from their parenting role. It would be considered a pathetic excuse by any decent person.

"What you're pregnant! Sorry I can't be a father, I'm going on a 6 month deployment to Afghanistan. Bye Carol, don't tell David about me!"

"What you're in the navy! Sorry you can't be a father to my baby, you'll be away too often. Bye Kirk, I won't tell David about you. I don't like your career choices!"
 
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So Kirk files for custody...and then what? How does this improve David's life? Because we are talking about what's best for the child here, aren't we? Given the path Kirk's life was on, what would you expect to happen?
 
Again, there's that word, "force".

You cannot "force" your way into your own child's life. HE'S...YOUR...CHILD. I don't care if the mother "wishes" me not to be involved. That's not to say if we're not together, a reasonable arrangement couldn't be made.

A "constructive alternative"? I bet there are thousands of children right now who's parents are divorced (or otherwise not together), and one parent is serving in the military. Do their parents never write? Call? Send birthday presents? Visit while on leave? Do the kids not know their parent is because it's inconvenient?

I rather think you can force your way into your child's life, especially if the child doesn't want you to be a part of it. What if David himself didn't want Kirk around? It's nice that you'd be so dismissive of the mother's concerns though; that will doubtless lead to a much better relationship.

For all we know, Carol was hoping to find (or had found!) someone who could be a surrogate father to David, and Kirk's presence would have screwed with that. And for all we know, Kirk agreed to that at the time.

Which takes me back to my main point - we don't know what happened, and to judge anyone for it doesn't seem especially fair.
 
Talk about a false dichotomy.

Why does it have to be "absent" or "shitty"?
Because those were basically the choices that Kirk had: be an absent parent or be an incredibly shitty one. In the latter case he would pretty much violate the express wishes of the more responsible parent and cause disruption in both of their lives for no reason except to play at some assumed responsibility of paternity he is in no position to live up to.

Why do you think people give kids up for adoption in the first place? Knowing that you would make a shitty parent and giving your child to someone else to raise is the morally preferable option to taking on a responsibility you know you can't handle.

Any attempt to justify abandoning your own child is going to be pretty self-serving.
Depends on the person. In Kirk's case, we know for a fact that it wasn't the choice he would have made. But the only other alternative would be to leave Starfleet and pick up civilian work that let him stay with Carol and David... which, knowing Kirk, isn't an alternative at all.

Besides, having children AT ALL is an inherently self-serving venture. Choosing not to fuck up those children's lives by taking on responsibilities you can't live up to is simply the lesser of two evils where Kirk is concerned.

You've actually created a scenario where I'm the good guy for abandoning my child. "Look at me! I'm a good person because I spared my child the burden of knowing me."
This is LITERALLY the ideal solution for many parents who have serious mental illnesses or substance abuse issues. It is ABSOLUTELY the ideal solution where one parent has a history of domestic violence or a criminal history.

Just because someone is related to you by blood doesn't mean their presence is beneficial to your life. Kirk's presence -- fleeting, inconsistent and very very distant -- probably wouldn't have been, and more importantly, the RESULTS we see is that David doesn't hold it against Kirk at all, grew up to be a brilliant (if short-tempered) scientist.

In hindsight, it was getting involved with Kirk's shit that finally got David killed. No wonder Carol wanted him to stay away.
 
As has been stated plenty of people in RL navy, army etc are divorced parents and no one considers that a good reason for them to walk away from their parenting role. It would be considered a pathetic excuse by any decent person.

"What you're pregnant! Sorry I can't be a father I'm going on a 6 month deployment to Afghanistan. Bye Carol, don't tell David about me!"

"What you're in the navy! Sorry you can't be a father to my baby, you'll be away too often. Bye Kirk, I won't tell David about you. I don't like your career choices!"

I certainly don't mean to diminish the real world military, but Starfleet is on a whole 'nother level. Starfleet officers are often away from their families for years at a time. Crossing interstellar space for thousands of light years is much harder than simply taking a plane home while on leave.

He was on the same path as Sulu. He was an active father.

Then again, we don't know who Demora's mother was, do we? For all we know, they had the same arrangement that Kirk and Carol did...
 
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Why do you think people give kids up for adoption in the first place? Knowing that you would make a shitty parent and giving your child to someone else to raise is the morally preferable option to taking on a responsibility you know you can't handle.

I read an absolutely heartbreaking story about a couple that knew they didn't have the means to raise a child and were all set to give it up for adoption until a nurse at the hospital didn't let up till she had guilted the mother into keeping the kid. Story ends with child neglect charges, and the kid heading to adoption anyway.
 
I certainly don't mean to diminish the real world military, but Starfleet is on a whole 'nother level. Starfleet officers are often away from their families for years at a time. Crossing interstellar space for thousands of light years is much harder than simply taking a plane home while on leave.
And yet they have real time subspace communications. And not every member of Starfleet is on an exploratory ship.
Was the Enterprise the first ship on a five year mission or was it a Starfleet norm?
 
He was on the same path as Sulu. He was an active father.
Sulu wasn't captain of a Starship until Demora was almost grown. Also, judging by her relative age (and her appearance on Yorktown if the Kelvinverse means anything), she would have been a toddler by the time the Enterprise finished its five-year mission. That would be time enough for Sulu to take a desk job or a home patrol mission so he could be closer to his family. Kirk's command of the Enterprise (and arguably the second 5-year mission after V'ger) would have coincided with David's more formative years; by the time that was done, David would have been applying to college.

And yet they have real time subspace communications. And not every member of Starfleet is on an exploratory ship.
Was the Enterprise the first ship on a five year mission or was it a Starfleet norm?
Those long haul missions are difficult enough that 100 years later Starfleet officers were bringing their families WITH them.

Hell, Kirk himself is a good example of this, considering he was BORN on the USS Kelvin. Evidently one or both of his parents (probably his mother) gave up their career in Starfleet to help raise him; in the Kelvinverse, his mother stayed in Starfleet and left him to be raised by an asshole stepfather.

Which kind of suggests (and the Shatnerverse novels confirm) that Kirk had expected something similar to happen with David, but Carol simply couldn't accept Kirk being gone for years at a time and out of his life and then pop back in after 5 years like everything was normal. Even George Kirk probably wasn't away THAT long.

I like to think that William Shatner understands Kirk's character better than any of us, so I would give those novels a bit of extra weight. Just my opinion.
 
Sulu wasn't captain of a Starship until Demora was almost grown.Also, judging by her relative age (and her appearance on Yorktown if the Kelvinverse means anything), she would have been a toddler by the time the Enterprise finished its five-year mission.

David Marcus born 2261
Demora Sulu born 2270
Memory beta ain't canon but.....

The Kelvinverse has her born earlier which means her father is on a five year mission, while her other father raises her and none seem to think Sulu's career is a hindrance to parenthood. (STB set in 2263 and she looks about 5-7 years old)
 
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David Marcus born 2261
Demora Sulu born 2270
Memory beta ain't canon but.....
And the first time we see Sulu as Captain of the Excelsior is in 2291. Hell, even in Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock, Demora would have been about 16 or 17; she was probably just starting her freshman year at Starfleet Academy when Khan fired on the Enterprise.

But you're right: Demora WAS grown before Sulu got his own command. Kirk didn't have that option.
 
And the first time we see Sulu as Captain of the Excelsior is in 2291. Hell, even in Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock, Demora would have been about 16 or 17; she was probably just starting her freshman year at Starfleet Academy when Khan fired on the Enterprise.

But you're right: Demora WAS grown before Sulu got his own command. Kirk didn't have that option.

Unless he took a career break wherever his daughter resided, Sulu still managed to have career in Starfleet and be at least a known father to his child. And that daughter was a retcon like David.
 
Offtopic If Picard's fake son was really his and he knew the mother was pregnant I wonder what he would have done?
 
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