David Marcus - What did Kirk know and when did he know it?

[Nerys Myk]

Deadbeat as in absent and uncaring, not in the financial sense.

I think with a kid Kirk would rather be there than spend 5 years of his life away taking crazy risks across the galaxy.

Where do we get the idea Kirk was "uncaring"? And his absence seems to be at Carol's request.

KIRK: I did what you wanted. ...I stayed away. ...Why didn't you tell him?
CAROL: How can you ask me that? Were we together? Were we going to be? You had your world and I had mine. And I wanted him in mine, not chasing through the universe with his father. ... Actually, he's a lot like you. In many ways. Please tell me what you're feeling.

Though I do get the impression Kirk was there is some capacity, but then Carol more or less pushed him out of the picture.

DAVID: Every time we have dealings with Starfleet, I get nervous. ...We are dealing with something that could be perverted into a dreadful weapon. Remember that overgrown Boy Scout you used to hang around with? That's exactly the kind of man...

Kirk seems to have made an impression on young David.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I don't buy Kirk vanishing at Carol's word to fly off on space adventures. I think he'd get that a father's presence matters on some level. Even if he and Carol couldn't make it work, I think he'd want to be a part of the kid's life.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm projecting my own hangups onto Kirk. Or maybe it's another intentional example of Kirk being shown as a less-than-amazing human being. But either way, if Kirk knew about David prior to the 5-year-mission but took off into space anyway, it's disappointing to me.

 

[Longinus]

Many people here seem to place unreasonably high significance to biological parenthood. Kirk did what Carol wanted and David was fine (well, until he got killed.) Some people seem to think that Kirk should have forced himself in David's life against Carol's wishes...

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't buy Kirk vanishing at Carol's word to fly off on space adventures. I think he'd get that a father's presence matters on some level. Even if he and Carol couldn't make it work, I think he'd want to be a part of the kid's life.

It's right there is the script. And I don't think Kirk doing his job is "vanishing". David's line to me gives the impression Kirk tried to be in David's life, but for some reason Carol decided it would be better if he didn't.

My dad was in the military and was gone for long stretches. So maybe I can see it from a different perspective.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm projecting my own hangups onto Kirk. Or maybe it's another intentional example of Kirk being shown as a less-than-amazing human being. But either way, if Kirk knew about David prior to the 5-year-mission but took off into space anyway, it's disappointing to me.

I don't think the intent was to show Kirk as a "less-than-amazing human being.". I sure don't get that impression. Kirk didn't walk out on David.

 

[1001001]

Many people here seem to place unreasonably high significance to biological parenthood. Kirk did what Carol wanted and David was fine (well, until he got killed.) Some people seem to think that Kirk should have forced himself in David's life against Carol's wishes...

If he was my child, I would not be "forcing myself into his life". I would be parenting. Regardless of what the mother wanted, it's my child and she cannot lift that obligation from me even if she wants to.

As far as the movie goes, yes obviously everyone agreed and everything turned out fine, so that's great.

Except the David getting killed part.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Thing was, Kirk having a son, or any child for that matter, was a retcon, especially one that Kirk had known about at least for some time.

I don't recall anything being in the Writers Guide about Kirk's parenthood status one way or the other.

So, Kirk was always written as if he weren't a father.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Thing was, Kirk having a son, or any child for that matter, was a retcon, especially one that Kirk had known about at least for some time.

I don't recall anything being in the Writers Guide about Kirk's parenthood status one way or the other.

So, Kirk was always written as if he weren't a father.

I think for me that's the crux of it. If the Kirk we saw in TOS secretly had a child he was aware of and wasn't involved with raising... Well, that's a very different character, isn't it? But if he didn't find out about David until sometime between the series and the movies (easy enough if he & Carol weren't in touch and she wasn't an especially public figure), then the guy we saw on TV every week is reasonably intact.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Deadbeat as in absent and uncaring, not in the financial sense.

David at least knew something about "that overgrown boyscout" who used to hang around, and evidently figured out that said boyscout was probably his father. So "absent" probably isn't accurate.

Neither, probably, is "uncaring." In one of the Shatnerverse novels there's a flashback that revisits the exact moment Carol told him to get lost; it suggests that Jim Kirk had EVERY intention of being part of David's life, even maybe sponsoring his entry into Starfleet some day, but Carol had other plans, and the immanent collapse of their farce of a relationship was forcing her to put those plans into action sooner rather than later. It was an incredibly painful chapter in Kirk's life, and that's reflected in the pain and regret in his voice and his demeanor when he finally meets up with her again in the Genesis Cave.

I also have my headcanon: David is actually the result of a rather impulsive fling between Kirk and Carol from a time before he was a captain and before she was pursuing, shall we say, "legitimate" work. It's basically if a tryst between Picard and Vash resulted in a child and Vash decided only at that point to give up the life of crime and settle down with some other more stable guy... of course, back in those days she was still going by her first name "Janet" and didn't start calling herself "Carol" until after she divorced Theodore Wallace.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah my head canon has Kirk visiting young David and filling his head with stories of space exploration and Carol not having any of that. So see ya, Jimbo. Boy's gonna be a scientist.

 

[Shawnster]

David at least knew something about "that overgrown boyscout" who used to hang around, and evidently figured out that said boyscout was probably his father. So "absent" probably isn't accurate.

Depends upon your definition of absent. David could have found out about Kirk any number of ways that did not include ever meeting Kirk. If he never met Kirk, or saw him rarely, that is pretty much the definition of absent.

The scene in TWOK shows that Neither recognize each other initially. Kirk definitely doesn't recognize David. If he'd ever seen David, it's been so long ago that Kirk had to ask if he was David.

Im gobsmacked at the number of people who do not understand why people are upset at Kirk being portrayed as an absentee father. Yes the moral standards today are different than the 60s, and will be different in the 23rd century. But we are relating to this story in the context of our lives now and the reality is plenty of children have absentee parents and do not feel happy about that situation. In fact, they are painfully aware of the absence. To have Kirk painted as such only serves to tarnish the character.

The objection that Kirk respected Carol's wishes doesn't change the fact Kirk was an absentee parent. Such an excuse seems to take the woman's right to an extreme degree, as if her wishes were the only ones that mattered. Who cares what Kirk wanted. Who cares what David might have wanted growing up. It's only Carol's wishes that matter.

Kirk could have fought to see David and be a part of his life. It is called being a father. Respecting Carol's wishes is a flimsy excuse. It's more than just financial responsibility. It's about being a father.

 

[DonIago]

So...being a father means telling Carol "Screw off, I'm going to stick around whether you want me to or not"?

If that's the case, then it's perilously close to my definition of being a creeper.

Carol didn't hold a grudge (hell, maybe she respected Jim for having respected her, or even potentially regretted asking him to stay away (maybe not so much after David died)), Jim seemed to have some regrets, David seemed to have turned out well enough. If they're all content with the situation, who are we to judge them?

 

[XCV330]

So, Kirk was always written as if he weren't a father.

He was written as a captain of a starship on a 5 year mission. If he had any babies, he wasn't going to be a dad, and audiences of the time wouldn't have given him flack for it.
"Dads leave. No need to be such a pussy about it." -Ironman

Kirk probably would have been a lousy father. He grew up with probably an absentee father of his own out on Starfleet missions, while he got to watch 4000 people phasered to death by Kodos. He had one calling, and it didn't involve having a crib in the captain's quarters. In whatever they have as an economy, he wasn't even needed for child support.

 

[Nerys Myk]

He seemed to have a good rapport with the kids in " And The Children Will Lead" and "Miri".

 

[Brennyren]

So...being a father means telling Carol "Screw off, I'm going to stick around whether you want me to or not"?

If that's the case, then it's perilously close to my definition of being a creeper.

Trying to be a part of your own child's life -- whether or not you and his mother are in a stable relationship -- makes a guy a creeper? Wow.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If he had any babies, he wasn't going to be a dad, and audiences of the time wouldn't have given him flack for it.

Well, that's all your opinion, clearly, but I don't agree.

I stand by what I said: he was written as someone who had never been a father., but I will amend that to say, at least as far as he knew.

 

[thribs]

He wasn't a deadbeat. Carol told him he wasn't allowed to be around David while he was in Starfleet.

 

[DonIago]

Trying to be a part of your own child's life -- whether or not you and his mother are in a stable relationship -- makes a guy a creeper? Wow.

Trying to force your way into your child's life when the mother doesn't want you there? Yeah, kinda.

I mean, on a practical level, what would you have had him do? Press his face up to the windows? Send anonymous gifts? File for custody in court? Yeah, I can see how that would have improved David's childhood...

I'd like to see the people who are criticizing Jim for his decision to respect Carol's wishes propose a constructive alternative. Because I can certainly say that if he'd resigned his commission he may have just ended up resenting Carol and David for that, which wouldn't have improved anything.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Wow, great discussion! Lots of stuff to think about.

The scene in TWOK shows that Neither recognize each other initially. Kirk definitely doesn't recognize David. If he'd ever seen David, it's been so long ago that Kirk had to ask if he was David.

David definitely recognizes Kirk in the Genesis Cave. He takes a moment and sneers, "You" after he shoves Kirk and swipes at him with the knife. Of course, at that moment he thought that Kirk was somehow responsible for the slaughter of all his friends and colleague on Regula I ("Mother, he killed everyone we left behind!").

But we are relating to this story in the context of our lives now and the reality is plenty of children have absentee parents and do not feel happy about that situation. In fact, they are painfully aware of the absence. To have Kirk painted as such only serves to tarnish the character.

Excellent point.

He seemed to have a good rapport with the kids in " And The Children Will Lead" and "Miri".

I barely remember ATCSL, but I remember Kirk being decidedly uncomfortable with Charlie Evans looking up to him in "Charlie X," trying to pawn Charlie off on McCoy. I think he was also a bit uncomfortable with Miri's attentions. Being a father is not something that came naturally to him, at the very least. But he seemed to get better at it with time.

I stand by what I said: he was written as someone who had never been a father., but I will amend that to say, at least as far as he knew.

Agreed. It was obviously something that never really entered his mind during TOS.

Because I can certainly say that if he'd resigned his commission he may have just ended up resenting Carol and David for that, which wouldn't have improved anything.

Absolutely, and Carol realized that. ("Were we together? Were we going to be?") And I think Kirk, as much as he might've denied it or fought against the idea, realized it too, in his heart of hearts. Commanding a ship was his first, best destiny. Everything else was always pretty secondary to that. ("I already have a woman to worry about. Her name's the Enterprise.")

Kirk and Carol, and most of his love interests, really, were in a no-win scenario, relationship wise. I think it's pretty telling that the two main times Kirk readily falls in love and is ready to commit to a woman long-term are in "City on the Edge of Forever" and "The Paradise Syndrome," two episodes where he's removed from the responsibility of command.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

That said, I always liked the idea in Meyer's originally planned prologue for STVI that showed that Carol and Kirk were reconciled and had resumed their relationship. I'd like to think that they ended up together again after TUC, but I guess GEN blew that idea out of the water.

 

[DonIago]

I do like the idea that Carol is eventually able to reconcile with Jim and forgive him for David's death (not that he was directly responsible, obviously).

I thought it was a shame that GEN introduced some woman we'd never heard of, and a pointless one at that, rather than utilize someone the audience would have (more likely) been familiar with.

Hell, imagine if Jim's Nexus fantasy had been to be in a stable family with Carol and David after having left Starfleet when he was good and ready to do so.