David Goyer to write new "Superman" movie

[Agenda]

I must disagree. So many things were similar, I thought. The way Routh imitated Reeve, similar costumes, similar sets (especially fortress of solitude), the dialogue (sometimes the same jokes), Brando, the romantic flying sequence, saving a plane, a version of Lex we haven't seen since 1979, same music, Lex has a female sidekick who's not all bad, and there's more.

It went way past homage, to almost full blown sequel territory.

Yeah, one difference is that it's all more morose, but that wasn't a good thing.

 

[JacksonArcher]

Yet all those homages were just that... homages. They didn't affect the telling of the story. As I mentioned before, to several audience members who had never seen the Donner film, the homages just flew right passed them.

 

[Agenda]

As I mentioned before, to several audience members who had never seen the Donner film, the homages just flew right passed them.

Well, I almost wish I was one of those people, because it all seemed like a boring retread to me. Maybe I would have enjoyed it more, otherwise. One homage too many, imo.

 

[Samurai8472]

Almost everything in "Superman Returns" was trying to be something else.

It couldn't establish it's own identity. When it tried to it was too late.

 

[Captaindemotion]

This new Superman movie will be in a separate continuity, so I think it should differentiate itself, establish itself clearly as a distinct entity.

Yeah, I hope the A-Team movie doesn't use the TV theme

: |

Exactly. Should the Mission Impossible movies have used a new theme, inspired by the Lalo Schifrin classic? No because the original has entered the public consciousness and everyone associates it with MI, even if they haven't seen a single episode of the old show or the movies.

John Williams' Superman theme may not be the first or last Superman score but it is THE definitive one and no other has the same recognition factor. It's basically essential as well as quintessential.

 

[Agenda]

But if you bring back that theme, where do you stop? I don't know about you, but I love the Planet Krypton theme just as much or more, and that's always been used as well, as far as I know.

I don't think general audiences care about it as much as we do. But if that theme is in the new reboot, then they'll probably have to do it all the time from now on. At least Singer's film was a half-hearted sequel, so it was somewhat expected, but if a total reboot uses it, then that's something else. That's turning it into the James Bone theme.

 

[Christopher]

This new Superman movie will be in a separate continuity, so I think it should differentiate itself, establish itself clearly as a distinct entity.

Yeah, I hope the A-Team movie doesn't use the TV theme

: |

Exactly. Should the Mission Impossible movies have used a new theme, inspired by the Lalo Schifrin classic? No because the original has entered the public consciousness and everyone associates it with MI, even if they haven't seen a single episode of the old show or the movies.

John Williams' Superman theme may not be the first or last Superman score but it is THE definitive one and no other has the same recognition factor. It's basically essential as well as quintessential.

Well, I disagree. The analogies of The A-Team and Mission: Impossible are invalid because they aren't entries in an ongoing tradition of multiple themes for the same property. In each case, there's only been one prior incarnation of the series and it's only had one theme. Superman has had many themes over the years, and Williams' is just one of them. It's ridiculous to argue that there shouldn't be multiple Superman themes, because there are already close to a dozen distinct ones. The tradition of new Superman themes is already seven decades old. It's a fact of life whether you want to admit it or not.

And I don't buy the rhetoric about "recognition factor" and "definitive" themes. That's narrow-minded. I'm sure that in 1978, Leon Klatzkin's theme was considered the definitive, most widely recognized Superman theme. That's why Williams based his own theme so heavily on it. Who's to say that some future composer won't come up with a theme that supplants Williams' work as the "definitive" theme the same way Williams' theme supplanted Klatzkin's? Don't assume that the preferences and prejudices of your own narrow sliver of history represent a universal constant.

 

[Greg Cox]

That's turning it into the James Bone theme.

I can live with that.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

That's turning it into the James Bone theme.

"James Bone" is a rather apt typo.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

The comics Lois fell in love with Superman and after learning his secret learned to love Clark Kent. This is what I prefer.

Maybe there have been some changes since I last read Superman but from what I remember Lois ended up falling in love and saying yes to Clark's marriage proposal before he revealed he was Superman to her. Action Comics #662

Personally, I think it says more about Lois's character if she falls in Love with Clark rather than Superman.

I've always maintained, even in the Pre-Crisis universe particularly the Silver and Bronze Ages, that Lois Lane has always been in love with Clark Kent more than she ever had been with Superman.

Psychologically, Lois is an egotist. Her ego won't accept that she could ever fall in love with a man that isn't super, especially if that man is a mild-mannered "milquetoast" like Kent. But she's drawn to him, and truly cares for him as seen in some of the Elliot S! Maggin written issues. Even in the DonnerVerse movies, she's drawn to bespectacled Clark. He's different from all the other city boys, just as Superman is different from all the other men she's ever dated. Clark is sincere. Honest to default. Caring. And always there.

In fact, when other women get involved with Clark, Lois gets jealous. Like in Superman III, when Lois sees the diamond ring on Lana's finger and assumes quickly that Clark proposed to her. Or in Superman IV where she gets overprotective of Clark when Lacey starts making her move. Granted, however, Lois does play it off. Yet I think there is still a charge of romantic love for Clark coursing through those scenes in IV. (And it's this subtlety of emotion that either Bosworth or Singer didn't inject into SR; I blame Bosworth.)

Lois, because of her ego, goes out of her way to prove that Clark is Superman as she does so many times during the Silver and Bronze Age comics. If she can prove Clark is Superman then it would justify her love for Clark.

However, the moment Superman is out of the picture or Clark asserts himself in any measure, Lois gravitates to Clark and she's more than happy to be with him. On Earth 2 when Superman was eradicated by magic and Clark sprung forth from the ashes, Lois fell for Clark almost immediately so much so that they were married. When Superman returned, Lois remained married as Lois Lane-Kent.

One of the folks at Radio Kal or from the Superman Homepage, iirc, made a comment on a podcast that having Lois fall for the more mild-mannered version of Kent and not the Byrne version made her seem weak. In fact, I think it makes her stronger. Lois falling for Kent and marrying that version, as we see in the recent comics, makes her a woman who doesn't care what other people think. That she loves the man she is going to love because she sees him for who he truly is beyond both the glasses and the cape.

Lois Lane loves them both and she's the only one who gets to see the person beneath the two public personas he dons. But she'll always love the part that binds him to her and humanity more--Clark Kent.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Has there ever been a reboot that's kept the same star? There have been reboots that have kept supporting actors (such as Judi Dench in Casino Royale), but I can't think of a reboot that's kept the same lead actor.

I can think of some cases that are close, but not exactly that. Kevin Conroy has played Batman in a couple of the DC Universe DVD movies that are in separate continuities from the DCAU (Batman: Gotham Knight and Superman/Batman: Public Enemies), though Gotham Knight was theoretically in the continuity of the Nolan movies. Tim Daly and Clancy Brown reprised Superman and Luthor in Public Enemies and (along with Dana Delany) the earlier Brainiac Attacks (not in DCAU continuity despite reusing its character designs) and a 2-part episode of The Batman.

You could sort of say that the heavily retooled second season of War of the Worlds: The Series was a reboot, along with the time-reset second season of Witchblade: The Series. But that's a stretch.

Would you count multiple incompatible sequels to the same original? Don Adams reprised Maxwell Smart in The Nude Bomb, Get Smart Again!, and a short-lived sequel series starring Andy Dick as his son, and they were all inconsistent with one another.

You forgot about House of Dark Shadows using the cast from Dark Shadows.

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

imagine if they casted Tim Daly.

 

[Christopher]

You forgot about House of Dark Shadows using the cast from Dark Shadows.

I can't forget something I've never even heard of. I know what Dark Shadows is, but not the "House of..." thing.


As for Lois's feelings toward Clark (responding to middyseafort), I liked the way it was played in Superman: The Animated Series. Their relationship was more of a rivalry, two hardnosed reporters jockeying for advantage, and there was no sign she had romantic feelings for Clark, but she adopted a protective, somewhat maternal attitude toward him, as though he needed her to take care of him and keep him safe, which was delightfully ironic. My favorite moment was in "A Little Piece of Home," where Clark is feeling the effects of the Kryptonite fragment Lois shows him and she mistakes it for a cold. In her usual fast-talking, hard-hitting tone, she tells the waitress, "The gentleman will have chicken soup, orange juice, and tea with lemon" before Clark can get a word in edgewise, and then she races off toward her next appointment. It's a gesture of compassion and nurturing, but carried out in a no-nonsense, domineering way, without a trace of softness showing. I found that to be a brilliant bit of character writing (courtesy of the late Hilary J. Bader).

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

As for Lois's feelings toward Clark (responding to middyseafort), I liked the way it was played in Superman: The Animated Series. Their relationship was more of a rivalry, two hardnosed reporters jockeying for advantage, and there was no sign she had romantic feelings for Clark, but she adopted a protective, somewhat maternal attitude toward him, as though he needed her to take care of him and keep him safe, which was delightfully ironic. My favorite moment was in "A Little Piece of Home," where Clark is feeling the effects of the Kryptonite fragment Lois shows him and she mistakes it for a cold. In her usual fast-talking, hard-hitting tone, she tells the waitress, "The gentleman will have chicken soup, orange juice, and tea with lemon" before Clark can get a word in edgewise, and then she races off toward her next appointment. It's a gesture of compassion and nurturing, but carried out in a no-nonsense, domineering way, without a trace of softness showing. I found that to be a brilliant bit of character writing (courtesy of the late Hilary J. Bader).

Foremost, that is a great scene and it's beautifully animated as well. The way Lois and Clark move around each other then the cutaway to the waitress is fantastic.

Second, the hard-noised reporter rivalry is something I enjoy most about the animated series, the Fleischer cartoons, The Adventures of Superman, and the early Byrne issues.

For me the reporter rivarly was best in the first season of The Adventures of Superman as played between Phyllis Coates and George Reeves. Then again, Coates is my favorite iteration of Lois Lane for her steadfast performance, which I can see as an influence for the animated series version, and I believe her as a reporter of that era.

Of course, Reeves's Kent is also my favorite iteration. Like the 40s comics and strips, his Kent was assertive around his editor (Perry White or George Taylor) and occasionally cowardly, or feigned illness, around Lois.

I hope that any new movie picks up on that rivalry as well as the emotional undercurrent Lane has for Kent. Like I said, it makes Lois stronger for falling and accepting her love for her mild-mannered colleague. As Perry White said in the recent "Last Son" comics, "All of the men in Metropolis to choose from and she chooses Kent."

Moreover, I'd like the movies--and this is something they haven't done--to do is show Clark Kent as a competent investigative journalist. Even when he was a complete milquetoast in the Silver and Bronze Age comics, he was still an able reporter who people came to with their stories.

Speaking of Lois, great stuff on "Being Lois" from most of the actresses that have played the part:

Being Lois, part one
Being Lois, part two

 

[Greg Cox]

You forgot about House of Dark Shadows using the cast from Dark Shadows.

I can't forget something I've never even heard of. I know what Dark Shadows is, but not the "House of..." thing.

HOUSE OF DARK SHADOWS was the first theatrical movie, released back in the 70's. It was basically a streamlined remake of the tv show with ten times more blood and gore. (They could get away with a lot more violence on the big screen.)

So, yes, you had the original cast starring in a remake of their own show. Filmed at the same time that the show was on the air.

The same applies to sequel, NIGHT OF DARK SHADOWS, which took greater liberties with the tv show plotlines, but once again had the original cast playing variations of their tv characters.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Interesting! Both would qualify for my "Same actor/character = Different Continuities" thread.

 

[Greg Cox]

The DS movies definitely had their own continuity, despite all the familiar names and faces. They even killed off several of the series' regulars! (Whom continued to appear on the tv version.)

Basically, the movies took storylines from the soap opera and turned them into standalone horror movies, with beginning, middles, and ends.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Yeah, I hope the A-Team movie doesn't use the TV theme

: |

Exactly. Should the Mission Impossible movies have used a new theme, inspired by the Lalo Schifrin classic? No because the original has entered the public consciousness and everyone associates it with MI, even if they haven't seen a single episode of the old show or the movies.

John Williams' Superman theme may not be the first or last Superman score but it is THE definitive one and no other has the same recognition factor. It's basically essential as well as quintessential.

Well, I disagree. The analogies of The A-Team and Mission: Impossible are invalid because they aren't entries in an ongoing tradition of multiple themes for the same property. In each case, there's only been one prior incarnation of the series and it's only had one theme. Superman has had many themes over the years, and Williams' is just one of them. It's ridiculous to argue that there shouldn't be multiple Superman themes, because there are already close to a dozen distinct ones. The tradition of new Superman themes is already seven decades old. It's a fact of life whether you want to admit it or not.

And I don't buy the rhetoric about "recognition factor" and "definitive" themes. That's narrow-minded. I'm sure that in 1978, Leon Klatzkin's theme was considered the definitive, most widely recognized Superman theme. That's why Williams based his own theme so heavily on it. Who's to say that some future composer won't come up with a theme that supplants Williams' work as the "definitive" theme the same way Williams' theme supplanted Klatzkin's? Don't assume that the preferences and prejudices of your own narrow sliver of history represent a universal constant.

I'm AWARE of the fact that MI and The A-Team are the only themes of those series, just as I acknowledged that there have been multiple themes for the various versions of Superman.

And frankly I think it's a bit snippy and presumptious to throw around accusations of narrow-mindedness, prejudices and 'narrow slivers' when I've done so. FWIW, I've seen the Fleischer cartoons (I own them on the Superman collector's set), I've seen eps of the Reeves series and the Mole Men movie, Lois and Clark, the animated series etc. Hopefully a slightly wider than narrow sliver.

But the fact remains, that the total number of people alive who have seen those shows does not come close to equalling those who have seen the Reeve and Routh movies and know the Williams theme. Those shows and their themes are the preserve of a minority like you and me.

I accept that I am being influenced by my own preferences and tastes (as oppose to prejudices) insofar as I think that Williams' Superman theme is a brilliant piece of music which has stood the test of time. Sure, someone might make something that tops it. But - can you think of a superhero movie in recent years with a theme that does? Michael Kamen's X-Men? Forgettable. Danny Elfman's Spider-man? Same thing he's been doing for 20 years. Fantastic Four? Did it even have a score? I like bits of the recent Batman scores but I don't hum them in the bath, I don't hear DJs playing them on the radio to give stories or skits a sense of awe, you don't hear them played to instant recognition in quizzes, etc etc. Pretty universal, I'd say and not just in my 'narrow sliver.'

As you say, Williams acknowledged and paid homage to earlier themes. I'd go further and say that he perfected them, at least insofar as he made a theme tune that's perfect for the Man of Steel. A personal opinion, yes, but I'm entitled to it and I'm entitled to hope that the director of the next Superman holds it too.

And just like you're entitled to disagree.

 

[Greg Cox]

I gotta admit, I'm with Captain Demotion on this one. Granted, it's not the first or only SUPERMAN theme out there, but I agree that it's the definitive one. And it would be a shame to lose it.

 

[Christopher]

Nobody's going to lose it. It's always going to be there in the movies that featured it, no matter what other productions use. And I think it would be a shame to miss the chance to hear what other composers can do with a Superman theme. I like Williams' theme, it's just about my favorite of his movie themes, but I like Timberg's, I like Klatzkin's, I like Jones's, I like Walker's, I love Gruska's, and I'm enjoying the Clark/Blur leitmotif that Louis Febre has been using in Smallville the past couple of seasons. I think John Ottman is a good composer, I liked his Fantastic Four theme, and I would've been very interested to hear what he could come up with if allowed to compose an original Superman fanfare.

See, I think you guys are approaching this as fans of Superman, whereas I'm approaching it from the perspective of a lover of music, a fan of composers. I'm thinking of these more in terms of musical compositions than as identifiers for the character. And from that perspective, I like the idea of new composers getting to create new works in this particular little subgenre. I think it's a shame if a good composer doesn't get the chance to make his or her own contribution because he or she is asked to use Williams's work instead. I see that as a missed opportunity from a creative standpoint.