Data's rank

[McCovey Cove]

Admittedly, I've always found ranks and assignments in Starfleet to be pretty messed up. Who puts ranked captains in command of light cruisers and frigates? Defiant had a crew of fifty, and yet it had a ranked captain in command? That's a complete waste of that much experience. Janeway should've been a commander in command of the light cruiser Voyager (less than 200 in crew). That would've made Chakotay's provisional LCDR status a little easier to swallow.

When they placed Worf in command of Defiant as an LCDR, I was very happy, because that's way closer to how Starfleet should be operating.

Another thing I hated about the ranks was the "Starfleet regulation" in VOY's "Equinox" where the captain of the ship with the tactical superiority had authority? That's crap. The captain with the most time in grade is more senior. But then, I guess since Ransom was promoted before Janeway, they had to come up with a messed-up way to make the story work.

By present-day standards, any officer who doesn't bounce from ship to ship within a seven year career is pretty much shooting themselves in the foot. Career officers will have a long list of ship assignments to their name to show the level of experience they have. I realize Starfleet isn't the same as the US Navy, but one would think that spreading the experience around is a good thing for a psuedo-military organization. It was like they only did that for the scientists (read: LCDR Darren) but the command officers were pretty much stuck.

And Picard getting a triple-promotion to captain is beyond crap. Even if he was a lieutenant commander (not a lieutenant by some accounts) and got a double-promotion, I would rather choose to believe that Starfleet might've promoted him to 'commanding officer' rather than the rank of captain in order to command a light cruiser like Stargazer.

Just my two cents. Thanks for letting me vent.

-- ZC

 

[K-Star]

Another thing is you can get the most use out of his abilities as a science/engineering officer as opposed to just command.

True. And I guess you really don't see that many yellow shirts (or blue shirts) with a rank above Lt. Commander. You really don't NEED to be a captain or commander to be chief of ops or the chief science officer. For example: my dad never got promoted to Lt. Colonel because he didn't NEED to be one for his job (and it also had something to do with his boss checking the "promote" box instead of the the "definitely promote" box on the promotion request form which resulted in the board passing him over, but eh.) Also, according to dad, engineers in the Air Force pretty much NEVER get promoted past Colonel. And I suppose the rationale behind Commander-rank CMO's is because they kinda need SOME authoritative rank to get people to listen to them (they're the only ones under the captain who can give said captain an order.)

It still would've been awesome to see Data get promoted, though. I think he totally deserved one.

 

[Timo]

Who puts ranked captains in command of light cruisers and frigates?

When the humblest corvette carries enough nukes to kill a planet? I'd say aim for maximum expertise and seniority there, just in case...

...the captain of the ship with the tactical superiority had authority? That's crap. The captain with the most time in grade is more senior.

It makes sense, though. What if the older codger knows squat about the fighting abilities of the better ship? The more successful navies in the wars of the past 200 years valued the innovative skills of relatively junior officers as the naval hardware evolved at a rapid pace. Armies that did likewise gained potent armored and air forces, paratroopers and other innovations; armies that stuck with time-in-rank suffered in contrast.

Not that we'd have much reason to think that Starfleet vessels are that dissimilar. But the VOY idea has been sort of followed elsewhere in Trek. Why else would the fleet in ST:FC have yielded command so readily to Picard, a suspected traitor who was breaking orders to even be at the battle?

By present-day standards, any officer who doesn't bounce from ship to ship within a seven year career is pretty much shooting themselves in the foot.

Doesn't jibe all that well with the seven-decade careers and five-year missions of the Trek universe. Of course Picard should have diverse assignments - but he also has far more time for that than today's officers.

And Picard getting a triple-promotion to captain is beyond crap.

That's not part of the onscreen Trek universe, though. Picard's progression to Captain rank has never been detailed in the actual episodes or movies, and we have no particular reason to think that it was exceptionally rapid or featured double or triple promotions.

That is, all "Tapestry" ever establishes is that Picard once took command of the ship when the Captain was unavailable, and thus earned brownie points that eventually led to him getting command of the same vessel. All Picard in "Conspiracy" says is that either Picard, Walker Keel or Rixx was a rapid ascender to Captain rank or starship captain position, and we could well say it's not Picard since he isn't one for self-boasting.

We have never really heard of double promotions on screen. Major Kira probably became Lieutenant Colonel Kira, even if this is never explicitly told (they never explicitly say Commander Chakotay is a Lieutenant Commander, either). Captain Kirk probably became Commodore Kirk before becoming Rear Admiral Kirk. And McCoy no doubt became Captain before becoming Admiral.

We do see Janeway elevated from Captain to Vice Admiral rank rapidly between VOY and ST:NEM. But flag ranks aren't exactly like line ranks: a promotion there is less a function of seniority than it is of the necessities of posting. Janeway might be Rear Admiral in 2378, Vice Admiral in 2379, and Rear Admiral again in 2380, as best fits her assignment.

It still would've been awesome to see Data get promoted, though. I think he totally deserved one.

Amen.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[dave_R_treker]

I suppose, but usually they have one captain, one commander, then a number of Lieutenant Commander's under them, and usually it's just one bride Lieutenant Commander.

The Enterprise-A had a few captains (in STV) There were Capt. Kirk, Capt. Spock, Capt. Scott, and a few commanders, Commander Sulu, Commander Chekov, Comander Uhura, now i'm not sure about Dr. McCoy's rank but i"m sure it was probly had to be Commander.

So why couldnt Data have gotten a promotion. It wasnt until Nemesis that Data was goin to get a promotion and that was only because Rike was getting promoted to Capatin and getting his own command and data was going to be first officer.

 

[Timo]

now i'm not sure about Dr. McCoy's rank but i"m sure it was probly had to be Commander.

Yup, McCoy was a full Commander throughout the TOS movies. Lieutenant Commander in TOS, and Admiral of some sort in TNG.

To be sure, none of the numerous Commanders and Captains were actually supposed to be together on the same bridge in the TOS movies. In every movie except perhaps ST5:TFF, the bridge crew was hastily and rather randomly cobbled together from people who didn't really belong on the same starship. If not for Kirk's birthday joyride, the officers on the bridge of training ship Enterprise in ST2:TWoK would probably have been previously unseen Lieutenants and Lt(jg)s and Ensigns. If not for the very special diplomatic mission, ST6:TUC likewise.

And the bridge team in ST4 was being rewarded for their heroics, rather than being assigned to serve Starfleet in the most efficient manner. For all we know, they would all have gone their merry, separate ways immediately after the ceremonial launch at the end of that movie - but it turned out that the ship was a lemon, and they sort of stuck together to see the situation resolved one way or another, and then ST5:TFF intervened.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

We have never really heard of double promotions on screen. Major Kira probably became Lieutenant Colonel Kira, even if this is never explicitly told (they never explicitly say Commander Chakotay is a Lieutenant Commander, either).

Check the rank insignia in both cases.

Kira was indeed promoted two steps at once (the insignia of a Field Colonel - the Bajoran equivalent of a Lt. Colonel - is not the one she wore after her promotion).

Chakotay was also a lieutenant commander. He always wore the same insignia: two 'silver' stripes, one 'black' stripe.

 

[Snaploud]

It's understandable that the Bajoran ranking system would have the occasional double-promotion. The had only recently won indepedence, so military rank was only a recent development. They had to fiddle with the officer structure (especially while the provisional government was in flux). It will probably take them a few more years (at least) to get everything stabilized.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's understandable that the Bajoran ranking system would have the occasional double-promotion. The had only recently won indepedence, so military rank was only a recent development. They had to fiddle with the officer structure (especially while the provisional government was in flux). It will probably take them a few more years (at least) to get everything stabilized.

There is no evidence that Bajor had no military before the Cardassian occupation.

 

[Snaploud]

It's understandable that the Bajoran ranking system would have the occasional double-promotion. The had only recently won indepedence, so military rank was only a recent development. They had to fiddle with the officer structure (especially while the provisional government was in flux). It will probably take them a few more years (at least) to get everything stabilized.

There is no evidence that Bajor had no military before the Cardassian occupation.

The occupation lasted 50 years. My point is that the post-independence military leadership was likely in flux. High ranking officers, of course, had plenty of experience in the resistance, but they never worked their way through the ranks in the traditional sense (going from one rank to the next to the next). All the official rank decisions had to happen after the Bajorans won independence, and that's not an easy political process. How do you decide whether resistance fighter A should be a major or a colonel in the new Bajoran military? Who gets to be a general when most resistance fighting precluded centralized authority figures? Can you accurately measure the work of resistance fighters (who, by definition, are committing acts without written record)?

Quite frankly, I would be surprised if the officer ranks didn't go through a bit of chaos during the first 10-15 years post-independence.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

We do see Janeway elevated from Captain to Vice Admiral rank rapidly between VOY and ST:NEM. But flag ranks aren't exactly like line ranks: a promotion there is less a function of seniority than it is of the necessities of posting. Janeway might be Rear Admiral in 2378, Vice Admiral in 2379, and Rear Admiral again in 2380, as best fits her assignment.

And what exactly are you basing that on? Flag ranks in the modern US Navy, upon which the rank structure of Star Fleet is largely based, are exactly like "line ranks" in regards to promotions and seniority. I've seen nothing in Trek to suggest Star Fleet flag ranks are any different.

 

[Timo]

Check the rank insignia in both cases. Kira was indeed promoted two steps at once (the insignia of a Field Colonel - the Bajoran equivalent of a Lt. Colonel - is not the one she wore after her promotion).

Uh, there is no such thing as a "Field Colonel" in Star Trek. That's a weird misconception of Memory Alpha only.

And there is absolutely no reason to disbelieve that Kira's rank pins would indicate Lieutenant Colonel. We have seen exactly two characters referred to as Colonel in DS9: Kira, and Day from "The Siege". While their pins were dissimilar, Day could have been the full Colonel and Kira his junior equivalent.

Chakotay was also a lieutenant commander. He always wore the same insignia: two 'silver' stripes, one 'black' stripe.

Indeed, we are in perfect agreement about that. It's just that it was never explicitly said that he was a Lieutenant Commander rather than the full deal - just like it was never explicitly said that Kira was a Lieutenant Colonel.

Flag ranks in the modern US Navy, upon which the rank structure of Star Fleet is largely based, are exactly like "line ranks" in regards to promotions and seniority.

I beg to differ. Flag ranks require presidential/congressional nomination, and such nomination is dictated by the demands and limitations of empty slots far more than line officer promotion is. Three- and four-star Admiral slots especially are strictly limited, and it is normal for people to be promoted to such rank for the duration of a job, then demoted to the standard two stars as the tour of duty ends. Although nowadays the demoted folks apparently tend to retire ASAP.

Essentially, Rear Admiral is a "holding" rank for the prestigious appointments that call for three or four stars - which is where the silly "Upper/Lower Half" thing comes from. The better paid Upper Half people are at the top end of the "waiting list" while the Lower Half are at the bottom. (Or, if I understand this correctly, the list actually is the original list of recommendations for promotion to flag rank to begin with, but the upper end folks also in practice get dibs on the three- and four-star slots.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Red Ranger]

There may be some at Starfleet Command who weren't convinced that Data *should* be promoted beyond LCDR. Or perhaps Data, being an android, did not have any 'ambition' to quickly rise through the ranks, and was content to stay where he is.

I agree with these points and feel it was a combination of both.

After all, we saw at least two officers who were uncomfortable with Data: Commander Bruce Maddox, who questioned Data's status as a sentient being in "The Measure of A Man," and Lt. Cmdr. Christopher Hobson, who didn't want to serve as Data's first officer on the Sutherland in "Redemption, Part II."

And Riker, when he was Captain of Enterprise in "Best of Both Worlds, Part II," says something along the lines that Data's nature omits ambition, but that he still considered him seriously as his first officer.

So there is probably a "glass ceiling" for androids in Starfleet.

RR

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The occupation lasted 50 years. My point is that the post-independence military leadership was likely in flux.

I'm sure it was. But Bajor had tens of thousands of years of civilization behind it, with military experience to match. They would not be likely to forget that during the (relatively) short time that the occupation lasted.

Check the rank insignia in both cases. Kira was indeed promoted two steps at once (the insignia of a Field Colonel - the Bajoran equivalent of a Lt. Colonel - is not the one she wore after her promotion).

Uh, there is no such thing as a "Field Colonel" in Star Trek. That's a weird misconception of Memory Alpha only.

Actually, no. That's the Bajoran term for a Lieutenant Colonel. It was in the script for "The Siege" (which is also where we learn Day's full name).

And there is absolutely no reason to disbelieve that Kira's rank pins would indicate Lieutenant Colonel. We have seen exactly two characters referred to as Colonel in DS9: Kira, and Day from "The Siege".

Also Lenaris Holem from that other episode (can't remember the title).

While their pins were dissimilar, Day could have been the full Colonel and Kira his junior equivalent.

The insignia of a Field Colonel was worn by two people: Day, and Li Nalas. (Li was never *called* a colonel, but he wore the insignia of one.) Kira's was different. Where the F-Col insignia had a black area on one side, Kira's was all silver.

Chakotay was also a lieutenant commander. He always wore the same insignia: two 'silver' stripes, one 'black' stripe.

Indeed, we are in perfect agreement about that. It's just that it was never explicitly said that he was a Lieutenant Commander rather than the full deal - just like it was never explicitly said that Kira was a Lieutenant Colonel.

In both cases, one would rarely *need* to explicitly spell it out (except in formal situations, which we rarely see), because as we all know, a Lieutenant Commander is often just called 'Commander', and the same goes for a Lieutenant Colonel.

 

[Maniarek]

There may be some at Starfleet Command who weren't convinced that Data *should* be promoted beyond LCDR. Or perhaps Data, being an android, did not have any 'ambition' to quickly rise through the ranks, and was content to stay where he is.

That's certainly possible, although personally I don't consider it likely. The fact that Data was accepted into the academy and graduated seems to lay the matter to rest, and I honestly can't imagine why a Federation built on diversity would assume that androids and similar lifeforms can't be sentient. Especially when TOS used them on several occasions.

There may have been more than one like Bruce Maddox.

That's true. It would've been fascinating to see an episode that touched on this very subject of Data’s promotion, especially since the show is taking place in an era where almost all forms of discrimination (conventional discrimination) has been rooted out.

Perhaps one episode that culminated in the dismissal of a flag officer who impeded Data's promotion prospects because of beliefs similar to Maddox's, etc.

 

[Timo]

Actually, no. That's the Bajoran term for a Lieutenant Colonel. It was in the script for "The Siege" (which is also where we learn Day's full name).

But scripts aren't real. Or rather, they aren't part of the Trek universe where these rank schemes exist, they are merely part of the real universe.

The utterly nonsensical "Field Colonel" never appears onscreen. Nor do we have much reason to think that it would have appeared in the shooting script of the episode, for that matter - the scripts at TrekCore are typically older versions, sometimes (especially in the case of TNG) radically different from the aired episode.

There is absolutely no reason to think that Bajorans would have "Bajoran" terms for anything military. In all known examples, their ranks have followed standard Earth-American Army or Navy patterns, featuring regular titles like Major or Colonel or General. The one "alien" thing we got, "Navarch" for Li Nalas, was not a military rank but was specified to be a religious honorific.

The insignia of a Field Colonel was worn by two people: Day, and Li Nalas. (Li was never *called* a colonel, but he wore the insignia of one.) Kira's was different. Where the F-Col insignia had a black area on one side, Kira's was all silver.

Makes sense, as the Bajorans would love to give Li a rank that exceeded Sisko's Commander rank... Full Colonel would do that nicely.

As regards the pins themselves, it appears that those rare second season pins were simply lost long before there emerged the need to decorate Kira with them, and new ones had to be designed from scratch. It is merely a happy coincidence from the audience's point of view, then, that Lieutenant Colonel Kira wears pins different from those of Colonel Day...

In both cases, one would rarely *need* to explicitly spell it out (except in formal situations, which we rarely see), because as we all know, a Lieutenant Commander is often just called 'Commander', and the same goes for a Lieutenant Colonel.

Exactly. Hence nobody would rub it in that Kira was a "mere" Lieutenant Colonel, either.

Tellingly, when Kira decides to wear a Starfleet uniform for her mission of insurgency instructor, in order to appease the Cardassians, her rank is that of Commander, the exact equivalent of Lieutenant Colonel. There would be no logic in arbitrarily giving her Commander rank if that weren't the match of her true Bajoran Militia rank. Why not make her Captain or Admiral if one were to be arbitrary? Why not Lieutenant if the idea was not to intimidate the Cardassians? It would be needlessly insulting to "demote" her for this mission where she needed all the prestige she could have.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The utterly nonsensical "Field Colonel" never appears onscreen. Nor do we have much reason to think that it would have appeared in the shooting script of the episode, for that matter - the scripts at TrekCore are typically older versions, sometimes (especially in the case of TNG) radically different from the aired episode.

There is absolutely no reason to think that Bajorans would have "Bajoran" terms for anything military. In all known examples, their ranks have followed standard Earth-American Army or Navy patterns, featuring regular titles like Major or Colonel or General.

Field Colonel is no more "nonsensical" a rank than Lieutenant Colonel.

In any case, so what? So the Bajorans call it something slightly different. BFD. I mean, it's not a big deal that Cardassian ranks such as Glinn, Gul, Legate, etc. aren't rendered into English via the UT, so neither is this.

 

[Timo]

It's at least a medium deal in two senses:

Bajoran ranks are otherwise the perfect match of US ranks. Cardassian ranks are alilen thorough. Deviation from these patterns is always worth a comment.

And Field Colonel just plain doesn't exist in the canonical Trek universe. It has never been mentioned, it has never been implied, it has never been glimpsed on an Okudagram. It is no more real than the scripted "fact" that Farpoint was built on Cygnus IV, that Galaxy class ships have design tremors, or that William T. Riker goes by the nickname Bill.

Possibly Piller, the writer of "The Siege", had great plans for "Field Colonels" and "Over-Generals" and other oddities mentioned in the TrekCore script. But absolutely nothing ever came out of it. Memory Alpha is in deviation from its policy in presenting such things in the main body of an article when they only belong in the Apocrypha section.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Red Ranger]

Something to note: he does sorta have some kind of ambition to rise in the ranks. When asked by Timmothy why he wasn't captain Data said something like "my service record does not yet warrant such a position" or something. And in Redemption, he brought up his 20+ years of service to point out that he should be given command of a starship. He WANTED to command a starship, otherwise he wouldn't have questioned Picard on that matter.

So I think he does want to rise through the ranks, probably because he endeavors to be the best in everything he works at.

K-Star,

I like your reasoning here. I also think Data has a sense of ambition -- just not as overt an ambition as Riker's to command a starship. To elaborate on your last point, Data does indeed want to excel at everything he does. Perhaps Data saw attaining command experience as another means of advancing his often-stated goal of becoming more human. What is more human than being able to lead and inspire others?

Red Ranger

 

[Red Ranger]

Admittedly, I've always found ranks and assignments in Starfleet to be pretty messed up. Who puts ranked captains in command of light cruisers and frigates? Defiant had a crew of fifty, and yet it had a ranked captain in command? That's a complete waste of that much experience. Janeway should've been a commander in command of the light cruiser Voyager (less than 200 in crew). That would've made Chakotay's provisional LCDR status a little easier to swallow.

When they placed Worf in command of Defiant as an LCDR, I was very happy, because that's way closer to how Starfleet should be operating.

Another thing I hated about the ranks was the "Starfleet regulation" in VOY's "Equinox" where the captain of the ship with the tactical superiority had authority? That's crap. The captain with the most time in grade is more senior. But then, I guess since Ransom was promoted before Janeway, they had to come up with a messed-up way to make the story work.

By present-day standards, any officer who doesn't bounce from ship to ship within a seven year career is pretty much shooting themselves in the foot. Career officers will have a long list of ship assignments to their name to show the level of experience they have. I realize Starfleet isn't the same as the US Navy, but one would think that spreading the experience around is a good thing for a psuedo-military organization. It was like they only did that for the scientists (read: LCDR Darren) but the command officers were pretty much stuck.

And Picard getting a triple-promotion to captain is beyond crap. Even if he was a lieutenant commander (not a lieutenant by some accounts) and got a double-promotion, I would rather choose to believe that Starfleet might've promoted him to 'commanding officer' rather than the rank of captain in order to command a light cruiser like Stargazer.

Just my two cents. Thanks for letting me vent.

-- ZC

Zefrem,

Good points on how career advancement isn't presented realistically on ST. It would be most interesting, if there were another series, if our heroes were junior officers who receive several postings throughout their careers on different ships -- maybe a trio of officers, say, one command, one science, another medical -- who we follow from ship to ship as they attain new posts.

And I wholeheartedly agree that the whole idea of a triple promotion for Picard from lieutenant to captain makes no sense -- and, may I point out, is not supported by canon, either. I agree he may have been appointed as commanding officer of the Stargazer, with maybe a promotion to lieutenant commander so he had the rank. And by the time of the Stargazer's loss, he probably got promoted to captain rank by then.

Red Ranger

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Bajoran ranks are otherwise the perfect match of US ranks. Cardassian ranks are alilen thorough. Deviation from these patterns is always worth a comment.

No, not really. It could simply be a coincidence. (Are you going to complain about Klingon ranks too? )

Although in the end, it really doesn't matter what the Bajoran O-5 rank is called anyway. We know it exists - there's a pin for it, which has been worn onscreen. So if you want to call it Lieutenant Colonel, fine by me.