If only he hadn't died at the end of Nemesis... we could've seen him at the end as a full Commander and first officer of the Enterprise...
Here ya go.
And because I know you like old school Data...here he is in TNG Red:
Data's rank
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Here ya go.
And because I know you like old school Data...here he is in TNG Red:
That's certainly possible, although personally I don't consider it likely. The fact that Data was accepted into the academy and graduated seems to lay the matter to rest, and I honestly can't imagine why a Federation built on diversity would assume that androids and similar lifeforms can't be sentient. Especially when TOS used them on several occasions.
There may have been more than one like Bruce Maddox.
True, but he seemed to be in the minority. That's one of the few problems I have with "The Measure of a Man," because I don't really feel like the ep is about a minority struggle for equality (in this case, Data). I feel like Maddox finally had the chance to dredge an old issue up. The issue of robotic sentience just doesn't seem that big to me, in light of what's been shown, from the Feds' perspective. That doesn't mean it's not important, but I never felt Data was in danger of losing to Maddox.
Did you photoshop the lower pic? That is from the episode in which Data took command of the Sutherland (Redemption, Pt. 2) and he wore his gold tunic in that. You can tell this also by the gold piping around the top of his collar. Nice try!If only he hadn't died at the end of Nemesis... we could've seen him at the end as a full Commander and first officer of the Enterprise...
Here ya go....
And because I know you like old school Data...here he is in TNG Red:
This is a plot point in "the Buried age" , pop over to the literature forum and ask Christopher (the author) about it.
He explains it quite well - otherwise, you've got to wonder how how it takes such a capable chap 34 years to get to full commander.
Actually, they are both photoshopped for our pleasure. Data never wore a red ST:FC style collar, either...
For some reason, turning yellow to red in Photoshop is easier than giving a person a blue uniform: the versions of Data in blue have never looked quite "right" to me. But Data would have looked stunning in blue, too.
Timo Saloniemi
I think it's a combination of four factors (some of which have been brought up before):
1. Discrimination among the Starfleet leadership. Bruce Maddox was a notable example. Also, I seem to recall an episode (can't recall which one) where Data was given command of a vessel as part of a task force, and the first officer assigned to him balked at serving under an android captain. (True, Data did eventually prove himself in both cases. But the Starfleet admiralty in TNG time doesn't seem to be known for their ethical behavior ...)
2. Lack of desire on Data's part. I'd argue he got as far as he did based on talent. Anything above and beyond would take ambition, which is an emotion he didn't have before the chip was installed.
3. Speaking of talent, he's got a lot of it. A common saying in my day-job office is: "Don't be irreplaceable. If you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted." Data is irreplaceable, in more ways than one.
4. As an android, he's theoretically immortal (the ending of "Nemesis" notwithstanding). Without even a theoretical upper limit to his age, there isn't any rush -- he can afford to take his time and enjoy the ride up to the top. The same effect would apply to any longer-lived species -- notably Vulcans. Tuvok on Voyager was over a century old, and had only attained the rank of Lieutenant (after resigning from Starfleet and having another career for several decades, before coming back to serve again). Data would have the same privilege, only emphasized even more.
(By way of contrast with point #4, imagine if an Ocampa like Kes were to join Starfleet. Their lifespan is nine years, and they reach adulthood at about age one. Imagine if an Ocampa joined Starfleet Academy at that age -- by the time they graduate four years later, they're already middle-aged. Once they spend enough time in active service to be promoted past Ensign, they're ready to retire. I'd like to assume that the relative lifespan of the species in question would be taken into consideration, whether short, long, or immortal ...)
1. Discrimination among the Starfleet leadership. Bruce Maddox was a notable example. Also, I seem to recall an episode (can't recall which one) where Data was given command of a vessel as part of a task force, and the first officer assigned to him balked at serving under an android captain. (True, Data did eventually prove himself in both cases. But the Starfleet admiralty in TNG time doesn't seem to be known for their ethical behavior ...)
2. Lack of desire on Data's part. I'd argue he got as far as he did based on talent. Anything above and beyond would take ambition, which is an emotion he didn't have before the chip was installed.
3. Speaking of talent, he's got a lot of it. A common saying in my day-job office is: "Don't be irreplaceable. If you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted." Data is irreplaceable, in more ways than one.
4. As an android, he's theoretically immortal (the ending of "Nemesis" notwithstanding). Without even a theoretical upper limit to his age, there isn't any rush -- he can afford to take his time and enjoy the ride up to the top. The same effect would apply to any longer-lived species -- notably Vulcans. Tuvok on Voyager was over a century old, and had only attained the rank of Lieutenant (after resigning from Starfleet and having another career for several decades, before coming back to serve again). Data would have the same privilege, only emphasized even more.
(By way of contrast with point #4, imagine if an Ocampa like Kes were to join Starfleet. Their lifespan is nine years, and they reach adulthood at about age one. Imagine if an Ocampa joined Starfleet Academy at that age -- by the time they graduate four years later, they're already middle-aged. Once they spend enough time in active service to be promoted past Ensign, they're ready to retire. I'd like to assume that the relative lifespan of the species in question would be taken into consideration, whether short, long, or immortal ...)
People,
It never made sense that Data was a lt. cmdr. while Dr. Crusher and, then, Counselor Troi, were both full commanders. It would've made more sense for Data to have been a full commander all along as well as second officer, and keep Troi at lt. cmdr. and have Crusher at that lower rank , as well.
Frankly, I would've preferred that Data be the center of the bridge officer test show instead of Troi.
Also, given the large crew complement of Enterprise, more than 1,000, it would've made more sense to have at least two officers in the chain of command who held the rank of full commander -- Riker and Data -- to allow for other officers to be at the rank of lt. cmdr. as other shift commanders/duty officers.
Red Ranger
It never made sense that Data was a lt. cmdr. while Dr. Crusher and, then, Counselor Troi, were both full commanders. It would've made more sense for Data to have been a full commander all along as well as second officer, and keep Troi at lt. cmdr. and have Crusher at that lower rank , as well.
Frankly, I would've preferred that Data be the center of the bridge officer test show instead of Troi.
Also, given the large crew complement of Enterprise, more than 1,000, it would've made more sense to have at least two officers in the chain of command who held the rank of full commander -- Riker and Data -- to allow for other officers to be at the rank of lt. cmdr. as other shift commanders/duty officers.
Red Ranger
I dunno. I guess I just kind of have mixed feelings about characters having "intolerant" feelings towards Data and how he represents what a sentient android can be. Maybe because the few times it was used, it always kind of felt more like a plot device than a representation of actual concern over a different life form. But that's just me.
The discrimination towards Data seems to be based solely on whether or not he can be considered a life-form at all or merely a machine following (and limited by) the programming given to him by his creator.
It was a circular debate that was never resolved during TNG's run but it might have resolved (ironically) by his final act in Nemesis, IMO...
It was a circular debate that was never resolved during TNG's run but it might have resolved (ironically) by his final act in Nemesis, IMO...
Well, again, it doesn't make that much sense from a practical standpoint. Sentient androids had already been encountered in TOS, and I find it odd that the Federation would never plan for the possibility of encountering a planet inhabited by robotic life. Every test thrown against Data to determine whether he was a sentient life form was more or less resolved in his favor, so it seems to me like that would only reinforce the perception that he is fully entitled to the same rights.
I mean, they ran into this problem in "Measure of a Man." All of the questions relating to what constitutes sentience and whether Data can be said to merely be a programmed machine can just as easily be applied to organic beings. Are we not a form of living machine? Are we not capable of adapting our programming throughout our lives? These questions are purely metaphysical and can't be resolved satisfactorily.
I mean, they ran into this problem in "Measure of a Man." All of the questions relating to what constitutes sentience and whether Data can be said to merely be a programmed machine can just as easily be applied to organic beings. Are we not a form of living machine? Are we not capable of adapting our programming throughout our lives? These questions are purely metaphysical and can't be resolved satisfactorily.
Since the issues indeed are so high-brow, it only makes practical sense that they be resolved on as-needed, case-by-case basis. Legislation for an android who wants to join Starfleet would not exist before an android came up with a request to join Starfleet. And if at all avoidable, such legislation would not come to be even then. Legal precedents are a bitch, and whenever one has to formulate one of those, it is made to be as narrowly defined as possible.
Rather than delve in deep thought as the result of Data's application, Starfleet would probably have wanted to sweep the matter under the floor, accepting in the silly toaster because it was easier than arguing with it.
In the end, it wouldn't do to give general rights to all machines, in case some displayed the sort of sentience that called for such rights. It just wouldn't be practical. Human rights don't apply to all humans, either - because the concept of right is contradictory to begin with, and the rights of one automatically tread on the rights of the other. Starfleet sure as hell wouldn't want to get into a legal dispute with its starship computers in the middle of the Cardassian war...
Timo Saloniemi
Rather than delve in deep thought as the result of Data's application, Starfleet would probably have wanted to sweep the matter under the floor, accepting in the silly toaster because it was easier than arguing with it.
In the end, it wouldn't do to give general rights to all machines, in case some displayed the sort of sentience that called for such rights. It just wouldn't be practical. Human rights don't apply to all humans, either - because the concept of right is contradictory to begin with, and the rights of one automatically tread on the rights of the other. Starfleet sure as hell wouldn't want to get into a legal dispute with its starship computers in the middle of the Cardassian war...
Timo Saloniemi
Don’t forget data also has limitations, how often didn’t we see him misunderstood thing that ware obvious for the rest of the crew? Data in a diplomatic role doesn’t seem like a good idea, he takes everything literally, states the obvious on occasion and doesn’t understand who people feel strongly about certain problems (like the resettlement of colonies around the Cardasian border). He doesn’t seem to make a good captain.
These social skills (which he clearly lacks) are important in the command track and because he also lacks ambition why wouldn’t he stay there where he performs best? The need to rise in rank/position is mostly an emotion. A commander rank doesn’t help him in his duties, he still has to answer to Riker and he already outranks the rest of his department.
On the enterprise (at least on the D) there’s a clear distinction between Picard and the rest of the regulars. Picard doesn’t need to know a lot of the scientific/engineering/medical details, Picard decides what needs to be done, based on the rapports by his officers. Riker will then do, what Picard has decided to the best of his (and the rest of the crews) abilities. Picard decides they will investigate, Riker chooses the best (away) team to do it. Data excels clearly in the science department and the Enterprise is best served with him on that position.
On a side note: Do we know that data never took the bridge test or a similar test of command abilities? He seems to have the necessary credential to command the Enterprise He’s second officer after all.
These social skills (which he clearly lacks) are important in the command track and because he also lacks ambition why wouldn’t he stay there where he performs best? The need to rise in rank/position is mostly an emotion. A commander rank doesn’t help him in his duties, he still has to answer to Riker and he already outranks the rest of his department.
On the enterprise (at least on the D) there’s a clear distinction between Picard and the rest of the regulars. Picard doesn’t need to know a lot of the scientific/engineering/medical details, Picard decides what needs to be done, based on the rapports by his officers. Riker will then do, what Picard has decided to the best of his (and the rest of the crews) abilities. Picard decides they will investigate, Riker chooses the best (away) team to do it. Data excels clearly in the science department and the Enterprise is best served with him on that position.
On a side note: Do we know that data never took the bridge test or a similar test of command abilities? He seems to have the necessary credential to command the Enterprise He’s second officer after all.
We might assume that the people in red shirts have taken the test back in their Academy days already. The people in yellow, perhaps likewise, because they (and TOS redshirts) are commonly seen in temporary command.
It's only with permanent command positions that the yellow shirt might cause problems, such as with Eddington who apparently cannot become a starship captain without ditching his uniform. Possibly the banter between Eddington and Sisko just means that the former will have to give up the security line of work, not yellow shirts altogether - but then again, all starship skippers have indeed worn the special command colors...
I'd suspect Data would indeed have to take special command training to become a fully qualified starship commanding officer, but didn't need to take such training to qualify for his many stints as Chrusher- or Troi-style night shift supervisor. Thus, all the big decisions for Data would still have been ahead during his TNG years. And would largely remain unmade by the time of his death, too. Unless one counts it as a decision that he did not to pursue a command position, that is.
Timo Saloniemi
It's only with permanent command positions that the yellow shirt might cause problems, such as with Eddington who apparently cannot become a starship captain without ditching his uniform. Possibly the banter between Eddington and Sisko just means that the former will have to give up the security line of work, not yellow shirts altogether - but then again, all starship skippers have indeed worn the special command colors...
I'd suspect Data would indeed have to take special command training to become a fully qualified starship commanding officer, but didn't need to take such training to qualify for his many stints as Chrusher- or Troi-style night shift supervisor. Thus, all the big decisions for Data would still have been ahead during his TNG years. And would largely remain unmade by the time of his death, too. Unless one counts it as a decision that he did not to pursue a command position, that is.
Timo Saloniemi
Something to note: he does sorta have some kind of ambition to rise in the ranks. When asked by Timmothy why he wasn't captain Data said something like "my service record does not yet warrant such a position" or something. And in Redemption, he brought up his 20+ years of service to point out that he should be given command of a starship. He WANTED to command a starship, otherwise he wouldn't have questioned Picard on that matter.
So I think he does want to rise through the ranks, probably because he endeavors to be the best in everything he works at.
So I think he does want to rise through the ranks, probably because he endeavors to be the best in everything he works at.
I think his age since activation may also play a role in whether Starfleet thought he was ready for command. Obviously, though, his having reached the rank of lieutenant commander (of the flagship) shows that they were on their way to trusting him with command of a starship.
Another thing is you can get the most use out of his abilities as a science/engineering officer as opposed to just command.
