Data instead of Worf on DS9. Thoughts?

[patlandness]

As much as I respect DS9, I think Worf was handled badly on the show (on Next Gen he was an honorable warrior/philosopher, whereas on DS9, he was mainly an oafish, amoral thug--and I'm willing to debate that point anywhere and anytime).

Anyway, what if the powers behind DS9 during s4 had decided to go with the other non-human outsider of the Enterprise-D?

While, I don't know how they'd actually believably integrate him into the whole series arc, I think he would've proved a striking contrast from the rest of the characters. (Imagine a scene with Data and Garak! What if the Dominion tried to get their hands on him or have him fight the Jem'Hadar?)

Would he have helped or hindered the show? Would he be a Roddenberrian element in Ira Steven Behr's universe? How would that have played out? Would Data be proven wrong? Or would it at least be a stalemate between optimism and pragmatism?

What do you all think?

 

[Unicron]

Out of curiosity, why do you consider Worf to be an amoral thug on DS9?

 

[patlandness]

Unicron said:
Out of curiosity, why do you consider Worf to be an amoral thug on DS9?

Watch "The Sword of Kahless", "Rules of Engagement" "To the Death" and "Change of Heart" and his coldblooded killing of Weyoun in "The Changing Face of Evil".

 

[od0_ital]

^

'The Sword of Kahless'
- He was blinded by the power & prestige the bat'leth would have brought, but still managed to go back without it.

'Rules of Engagement'
- Durin' a battle, he fired on an enemy ship, and turns out, he was right, 'cause it was the Empire tryin' to set him up.

'To the Death'
- What's wrong with this one?

'Change of Heart'
- He wasn't able to leave his WIFE to die and that makes him a thug?

'The Changing Face of Evil'
- It ain't like Weyoun was the first guy Worf had ever killed (see Duras in TNG 'Reunion').

Anyway, topic at hand...

...I don't think Data would have worked at all on DS9, and to illustrate my point, I use the Pulaski / Data interactions from the second season of TNG. Watchin' the two of them, its like watchin' a mean old lady kickin' a puppy just for the hell of it. If Data had joined the crew of DS9, he'd have been beaten up by 'em a lot worse than Pulaski ever dished out. And knowin' that Data still wouldn't "get it" would just make the series sadder and less entertainin' to watch.

 

[WalkinMan]

It is an intriguing idea to have Data onboard DS9. And indeed it would be in a similar vein as an 'outsider' type character.

However, Data would add another 'special abilities' type character to a cast that already has Odo, Bashir, Dax. Data would take up more screentime with his clever solutions to problems, at the expense of other characters, and would be unable to form a long-lasting romantic relationship with any of them.

Part of the reason why Worf worked on DS9 was that he was paired up nicely with Dax, and his character complemented the crew...taking over Eddington's position as the Starfleet security officer. Data would sort of obviated Dax's position and his special abilities would encroach on the others. Not to mention his childlike and socially immature attitudes would not fit as well on the frontier outpost, more adult and ribald DS9 cast; he was suited better in a educational starship environment.

Worf IMO was a good addition because of both what he brought to the table and what he didn't. Whether the show did his character justice is another question, but I think it was a good extended run for the character who over time proved to have more depth than originally intended (a secondary character at the start of TNG).

 

[patlandness]

"To the Death" -- Worf simply can't control his violent impulses with Toman'torax. He had more self-control on TNG.

He shouldn't have fired without determining what the ship was first, but Worf admitted he was looking for a fight. He was let off the hook pretty damned easily in that one. And speaking of being let off the hook, "Change of Heart" was inexcusable. He may have endangered the entire Alpha Quadrant and given to the Dominion to save *one* person and he gets a slap on the wrist? (Yeah, I know the reason he's not sent to the stockade). Why isn't he at least treated at even the slightest degree different by the crew after that? Reset button! (Yes DS9 *did* have its own unnofficial RESET button in overlooking characters doing grossly immoral things and suffering no consequences).

I could buy Worf killing Duras--an ARMED opponent who had murdered his wife. It was also within Klingon law. But Weyoun was unarmed and merely insulted him with pervy innuendo. It was mainly done for shock value and laughs.

But I digress. Anyway, how would Data handle the world of DS9--Where there's the Maquis, Section 31, and the Dominion among many darker element of the Trek Universe?

But would Data address the darker world of DS9 from his wide-eyed Pinochio-like POV? Would he shake things up there? Would he leave Jadzia to die in "Change of Heart" if they were married? What if he did and put his duty above all else? Would he be scolded by the rest of the crew?

Would he be proven wrong in certain ways? Would he change as a person? Would he compromise his electronically imbedded principles? Would he shut of his morality chip if it meant saving the Alpha Quadrant?

 

[patlandness]

WalkinMan said:
It is an intriguing idea to have Data onboard DS9. And indeed it would be in a similar vein as an 'outsider' type character.

However, Data would add another 'special abilities' type character to a cast that already has Odo, Bashir, Dax. Data would take up more screentime with his clever solutions to problems, at the expense of other characters, and would be unable to form a long-lasting romantic relationship with any of them.

Part of the reason why Worf worked on DS9 was that he was paired up nicely with Dax, and his character complemented the crew...taking over Eddington's position as the Starfleet security officer. Data would sort of obviated Dax's position and his special abilities would encroach on the others. Not to mention his childlike and socially immature attitudes would not fit as well on the frontier outpost, more adult and ribald DS9 cast; he was suited better in a educational starship environment.

Worf IMO was a good addition because of both what he brought to the table and what he didn't. Whether the show did his character justice is another question, but I think it was a good extended run for the character who over time proved to have more depth than originally intended (a secondary character at the start of TNG).

Very, very good points! I am pleased. And you're absolutely right--the DS9 crew is definitely ribald in contrast to the straight-laced professionals on TNG.

But what if they transferred him post-Generations with the emotion chip fused into his neural net and without the ability to turn it off. Data then might be on a more even ground with the DS9 crew and his potential to be challenged as a character would be something to see!

 

[darthvincor]

Re: Data instead of Worf on DS9. Thoughts?

In my opinion, Brent Spiner isn't of the same caliber as the DS9 main cast.

But as a character, maybe not a main cast member, but a recurring character, couple of episodes might've been cool.

 

[patlandness]

Re: Data instead of Worf on DS9. Thoughts?

darthvincor said:
In my opinion, Brent Spiner isn't of the same caliber as the DS9 main cast.

TNG episode 4.3: "Brothers"--End of Debate.

 

[Kegek]

Re: Data instead of Worf on DS9. Thoughts?

^
Indeed. Mr. Spiner could go toe to toe with the best of DS9's ensemble.

As it is, though, Worf was a much more 'DS9' character. He was an alien from a, in DS9 terms, important geopolitical entity (like Quark, Kira and Odo) who, like Odo Garak and even Quark for a while, was an outcast among his people. He tended to be Wagnerian in his brooding, and DS9 was a rather brooding show.

Data, however, epitomizes the cheerful, optimistic attitude that made TNG so endearing. I can't see if he'd work any better in DS9 than Worf did. As for Worf's changes - IIRC Ron Moore acknowledged this in an interview, but said they were for the better and the show had a better handle on Worf than it had had in late TNG.

 

[starburst]

patlandness said:
He shouldn't have fired without determining what the ship was first, but Worf admitted he was looking for a fight. He was let off the hook pretty damned easily in that one.

Ship decloaking in the middle of a fight and he fired...if he had waited for an ID he or the convoy could have been blown out of space. He was in a fight with Klingons, no Starfleet ships other than his has a cloak and if the Romulans were around they would likely be watching while eating Romulan popcorn.

Seriously what sort of civilian ship would really decloak infront of the other sides ship in the middle of a firefight!?

As for Data, he knows too much and would take too much away from Dax & O'Brien...could have worked temporarily though.

Worf filed a void, they had a security cheif but needed more of a tough tactical officer to go along with what they tried with Kira.

 

[darthvincor]

Re: Data instead of Worf on DS9. Thoughts?

patlandness said:

darthvincor said:
In my opinion, Brent Spiner isn't of the same caliber as the DS9 main cast.

TNG episode 4.3: "Brothers"--End of Debate.

Seriously? You're saying Spiner ranks up there with Auberjenois, Visitor, Lofton, Shimerman and Brooks?
These guys had loads of great episodes, Spiner just a couple, not mention more successful post ST career.
Ah well, as I said, just my opinion, nothing more.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Data instead of Worf on DS9. Thoughts?

Seeing how Data acted when he had his own command in "Redemption", I'd say he's capable of being edgy and serious to fit in on DS9. Heck, he may have faced a lot more people like Hobson who didn't like the idea of serving with "a machine" seeing how they were fighting the Jem'Hadar (who are also seen as "machines" by some chars).

 

[Photon]

Worf grew on me. I like him, he brought an extra diminsion to the crew. Like all ppl on DS9 he had character flaws and made mistakes-something Data doesn't do.

 

[od0_ital]

Re: Data instead of Worf on DS9. Thoughts?

darthvincor said:

patlandness said:

darthvincor said:
In my opinion, Brent Spiner isn't of the same caliber as the DS9 main cast.

TNG episode 4.3: "Brothers"--End of Debate.

Seriously? You're saying Spiner ranks up there with Auberjenois, Visitor, Lofton, Shimerman and Brooks?
These guys had loads of great episodes, Spiner just a couple, not mention more successful post ST career.
Ah well, as I said, just my opinion, nothing more.

One guy, one set, three distinct characters - yeah, I'd say for that, Brent Spiner is right up there.

 

[Kegek]

Re: Data instead of Worf on DS9. Thoughts?

darthvincor said:

patlandness said:

darthvincor said:
In my opinion, Brent Spiner isn't of the same caliber as the DS9 main cast.

TNG episode 4.3: "Brothers"--End of Debate.

Seriously? You're saying Spiner ranks up there with Auberjenois, Visitor, Lofton, Shimerman and Brooks?
These guys had loads of great episodes, Spiner just a couple, not mention more successful post ST career.
Ah well, as I said, just my opinion, nothing more.

I'd easily rate him higher than Visitor, Lofton and Brooks.

 

[Angel4576]

Christ no!

I'd have my fill of Data by the time TNG ended,let along the movies.

Worf was the perfect choice for DS9, and I enjoyed the character. Others have said that he didn't really behave in the same way that he had done on the Enterprise. He wouldn't, it's a completely different environment, and O'Brien aside, he knew no one, effectively being right back to square one, ie. uncomfortable around people.

It was however, amusing to see him continuing to be intimidated by authority figures, first Picard, and then Sisko!

 

[anti-matter]

Re: Data instead of Worf on DS9. Thoughts?

Asy what you want about Worf but at least he was a good fit with the over all story...

...but Data!... ugh gag me with a spoon.

 

[Navaros]

patlandness said:
"To the Death" -- Worf simply can't control his violent impulses with Toman'torax. He had more self-control on TNG.

I don't agree that Worf had more self-control on TNG. I recall Worf screaming like a savage animal on TNG and trying to break everything when he got the least bit angry. On TNG he couldn't even articulate his thoughts a little bit, and instead resorts to savage violence right away. On TNG Worf was a one-dimensional beast. I'm no TNG expert but from memory I believe an example of this occurs when Riker and Worf transport to an empty ship and they keep going in circles and arrive at the bridge again over and over. Then Worf starts screaming like he isn't even a person, and going beserk.

Granted, Worf was still uncivilized on DS9, but still much more civilized than in the example just described from TNG. DS9 turned Worf from a one-dimensional beast, into a three-dimensional, slightly-less-beastly, person.

I can agree Worf didn't really add much to the DS9 show. Pairing him with a useless character (Jadzia Dax) did nothing to make either of them any them more useful or enhance the show in any way. In my view that was a waste of screen-time that could have been much better spent on other, good characters.

As for Data on DS9: sure, I would have loved to see that. I'd love to see Garak & Weyoun confusing the heck out of Data, and taking advantage of his naivete for their own agendas. And Data trying to counter Laas' very strong case against the solids.

 

[ladyheather69]

to answer the question of Data on DS9...well I am not sure that I would want him to be a main character but reoccuring sure. He may have had "dark" episodes in TNG, but he was still "innocent and childlike" in a lot of ways. I am not sure it would have worked over the series.

Spiner as an actor was terrific and could have held his own.

As far as Worf...well, I think that we have to look at the fact that his views of life and honor and death and loyalty are based on him being an "alien." And I think the way he did behave in those episodes mentioned are exactly as he would act. He would act Klingon in one and more human in another...that was who he was: a hybrid of sorts between Klingon and human.

I liked how in those episodes he acted or didn't act or did something against his "duty". As far as leaving Dax, I think if he had done his duty and left her, he would have been even more outcast on the station than before. The others wouldn' have welcomed him back. DS9 was full of emotions...not pragmatism.

MO obviously, but thanks for letting me have a say