DATA? Big deal!

[RobertScorpio]

okay...I am watching TOS this week, and I watched the one WHAT ARE LITTLE GIRLS MADE OF. First off, that brunett android was hot!!! Then I saw the episode with MUDD and his planet of androids..then Requielm for Methusala..and...whell...what was so big about DATA? Yes, he was done in a more modern way because of TNG and because science has come so far...but were the soong that big of improvements?

Rob

 

[Danoz]

okay...I am watching TOS this week, and I watched the one WHAT ARE LITTLE GIRLS MADE OF. First off, that brunett android was hot!!! Then I saw the episode with MUDD and his planet of androids..then Requielm for Methusala..and...whell...what was so big about DATA? Yes, he was done in a more modern way because of TNG and because science has come so far...but were the soong that big of improvements?

Rob

TOS never happened

 

[Samuel T. Cogley]

Data was more gay than the versions that came before him.

 

[Red Ranger]

okay...I am watching TOS this week, and I watched the one WHAT ARE LITTLE GIRLS MADE OF. First off, that brunett android was hot!!! Then I saw the episode with MUDD and his planet of androids..then Requielm for Methusala..and...whell...what was so big about DATA? Yes, he was done in a more modern way because of TNG and because science has come so far...but were the soong that big of improvements?

Rob

Well, my understanding is he had a positronic brain, which was supposed to be more advanced than previous androids, and that kind of brain was postulated in the Isaac Asimov series of robot stories in I, Robot. So, the construction of his brain is one of the things that makes him unique.

I also think that since those androids were products of alien, more advanced civilizations, Soong's accomplishment was he was the first known human of Earth descent to create a fully functional android withouth the benefit of the technology from those civilizations, so far as we know.

But the way they described him did kind of invalidate all the androids we'd seen before, as if they never existed. All it would have taken is one line of dialogue to say, "Data was the first android created independently by humans, as far as we know" or something like that.

Now, again, that would kind of invalidate Reyna, but since Kirk I believe promised he wouldn't reveal Flint's true identity, Reyna's secret would have been kept, too. So I doubt Noonian Soong would have been privy to that info.

Red Ranger

 

[Unicron]

^ Indeed. Some of the TOS androids seemed equally sophisticated compared to Data.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Rayna Kapec was practically human! Even Kirk was fooled.

 

[Timo]

Well, my understanding is he had a positronic brain, which was supposed to be more advanced than previous androids

The introductory dialogue from "Datalore" could be argued to say that Data was built with a positronic brain because Dr. Soong wanted to develop a positronic brain and the only good way he could create the required publicity for this invention was to install the positronic brain in an android.

The later dialogue that establishes Data as the only sentient android in the Federation in the late 24th century could then be taken as indication that the Federation finds no value in androids, and has abandoned that technology ages ago. Soong's machine man, rather dismissively treated by the leading AI researcher Graves, would not be significant because it was a functional android, or because it was a sentient android, but merely because it demonstrated the viability of positronic brains.

There has never been dialogue to the effect that it would be difficult to create sentient androids, mind you. Data himself can whip up one as a hobby project, for example. The positronic brain specifically was the technology that was said to be difficult to achieve, and indeed originally dismissed as a pipe dream. And Data has never been considered particularly interesting or valuable, except as a rare collectible; otherwise, Starfleet seems to treat him as a slightly retarded humanoid, a burden on the society who is only suited for menial tasks away from ordinary people.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

^Which is their loss because he is probably the most intelligent officer serving in Starfleet. He demonstrated that he is quite capable of fulfilling all the duties that were required of him.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Which is their loss because he is probably the most intelligent officer serving in Starfleet.

Even Data tried, and failed, to create a successful duplicate of a positronic brain, eg. Lal, who malfunctioned due to cascade failure.

 

[Timo]

...While in contrast, the android body he threw together worked to perfection.

Soong clearly achieved a real engineering breakthrough with his positronic brains. Whether that breakthrough had practical significance remains to be seen. It does look like everything done with positronics can be done with other technologies as well (android brains, brain prosthetics), although perhaps not with such compactness, and perhaps not trivially easily.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

Which is their loss because he is probably the most intelligent officer serving in Starfleet.

Even Data tried, and failed, to create a successful duplicate of a positronic brain, eg. Lal, who malfunctioned due to cascade failure.

Lal's failure may have had more to do with Data trying to shortcut the process by copying his own brain rather than building one from scratch. Unfortunately, Dr. Soong was not exactly a well respected member of the scientific community when he constructed Data and so he did not properly document his research to the point where someone could have easily reproduced his work.

Soong did, however, go a step further, remember. His recreation of Juliana Soong was probably his finest work. She was only identifiable as an android to other androids of the same type - her flawless musical performance and the not quite so random nature of her blinking gave her away to Data.

She was capable of having a marital relationship with Dr. Tainer without him ever realising her true nature.

In this respect, she was of a superior design to Andrea and Rayna Kapec as both suffered difficulties in dealing with human emotions. Kapec shut down when she became torn between Kirk and Flint, and Andrea became confused when Kirk kissed her.

 

[RAMA]

okay...I am watching TOS this week, and I watched the one WHAT ARE LITTLE GIRLS MADE OF. First off, that brunett android was hot!!! Then I saw the episode with MUDD and his planet of androids..then Requielm for Methusala..and...whell...what was so big about DATA? Yes, he was done in a more modern way because of TNG and because science has come so far...but were the soong that big of improvements?

Rob

Ruk was one of the more advanced androids but he was not positronic. ALL of the androids you mentioned had limited or no capability to grow, learn and form humanoid type emotions and relationships. Data was an incomplete android, but he and his "brothers" all had that capability. Lore was even a "full" android but wound up "imperfect" because he could not learn from ground level and gain value from the journey. Perhaps the only way the other androids were mroe advanced is that they were all capable of being manufactured in large numbers. Starfleet hadn't managed that yet.

RAMA

 

[Timo]

ALL of the androids you mentioned had limited or no capability to grow, learn and form humanoid type emotions and relationships.

How so? Ruk certainly seemed perfectly capable of things like loyalty, reevaluation of said loyalty, and dabbling in moral choices. Rayna Kapec was a bit imperfect in the mental flexibility department, but she was an ongoing development project lacking in beta-testing opportunities; had Flint gone for a version two steps more advanced, a Data think-a-like might have emerged. Only Norman and his lesser assistants appeared fundamentally inflexible.

Data was good at doing what was expected of him, which granted him the status of "Good boy, very humanlike, now laugh and cry a bit more". Lore was at least equally capable of being his own person, though. Mimicking human idiosyncracies is not a prerequisite for having the ability to grow, learn, form relationships and experience emotions.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

^Data was deliberately hobbled to be less human after what happened with Lore, that does not mean that the overall design was flawed. Those same principles went in to the development of Soong's Julianna android which was virtually indistinguishable from a human.

As I pointed out, only Data was able to tell the difference and that's only when he noticed her blinking and her flawless musical performance.

 

[Ghel]

Data is definitely more advanced than Kirk Era androids.

Kirk could kill most contemporary androids by spouting illogical and/or contradictory ideas. Data would not be harmed by such nonsense.

eg.
Kirk: "Today is tuesday. I never love anyone on Tuesday. I love you."

Robot: "Bzzt" Head pops off. . .

 

[Red Ranger]

Data is definitely more advanced than Kirk Era androids.

Kirk could kill most contemporary androids by spouting illogical and/or contradictory ideas. Data would not be harmed by such nonsense.

eg.
Kirk: "Today is tuesday. I never love anyone on Tuesday. I love you."

Robot: "Bzzt" Head pops off. . .

If Kirk tried that on Data, he'd just say, "You are describing a paradox. Intriguing." Then Data would list the number of similar paradoxes and leave Kirk scratching his head. -- RR

 

[darkshadow0001]

After reading this thread, I also had the same conclusion about a different species in Trek, namely shapeshifters. TOS had a number of them, but DS9 made it seem like Odo was the first, or the founders were the only shapeshifters.

 

[Anwar]

I don't recall the Shapeshifters in TOS being able to turn themselves into elements like the Founders could. What was distinct about them was the level they could shift to.

 

[K-Star]

*glances through this thread* I think y'all should read Immortal Coil...

 

[Rhaenys]

I read it and I don't like it at all. It's not canon for me.
I dislike the idea of all those androids and especially Rhea, because it makes Data much less special.
And Data finally finds a girl and she's an android?
Boring. And it's really disappointing for Data character.