Spoilers Daredevil: Born Again discussion thread

[Kai "the spy"]

Another great episode. I like how none of the storylines ended as I expected (well, except DD and Bullseye, ultimately). I fully expected Foggy's client/friend to be killed by Buck, I kind of expected Buck to kill Daniel (with a secondary fear that BB would be in the trunk), and once Vanessa woke up again, I expected her to live (maybe with permanent health issues, but still). All my expectations were subverted, and in ways that make sense both for the characters and the narrative. Turns out Buck didn't kill anybody this episode.

It was a real treat to see Foggy again.

The de-aging in the flashbacks worked very well. I don't know if it was done digitally or with make-up, or a mixture of both. I will say that it wasn't quite perfect for Charlie Cox, but it was impeccable for Ayelet Zurer.

Great performances as well, as usual, with D'Onofrio, Elden Henson and Michael Gandolfini being the stars here. When Buck put the tools in the trunk, Daniel's lower jaw quivered just so slightly, which was such a great detail of Gandolfini to show the characters fear and despair.

I also loved the use of aspect ratio in this episode. Underused tool in TV and movies.

Final question, do we really think BB leaked the information on the hospital and Vanessa's condition? It does feel a bit wrong for her character, like the gain wouldn't be worth further alienating Daniel. But then, who else would have leaked that information? Is there actually another leak in the administration?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

The de-aging in the flashbacks worked very well. I don't know if it was done digitally or with make-up, or a mixture of both. I will say that it wasn't quite perfect for Charlie Cox, but it was impeccable for Ayelet Zurer.

Yup, I was gobsmacked how they managed to recapture how Zurer looked 10 years ago. I imagine it was a combination of really good make-up and light digitally touching up, which is absolutely the best way to go. Make-up goes a long way in both directions, aging up and down, and this episode really proved that here.

I agree Cox wasn't quite perfect and I would say the same for Henson, but both of them were good enough because the two of perfectly recaptured that season one magic and that was the most important part.

I also loved the use of aspect ratio in this episode. Underused tool in TV and movies.

I loved that, too. I have seen some shows and films use it as a way to differentiate past and present (and sometimes future) and I think that works better than hard recoloring that some productions lean a little heavily into.

Final question, do we really think BB leaked the information on the hospital and Vanessa's condition? It does feel a bit wrong for her character, like the gain wouldn't be worth further alienating Daniel. But then, who else would have leaked that information? Is there actually another leak in the administration?

Nope, not for a second. Like you said, it wouldn't have been her nature to do so, especially since she's working the long con against Daniel. Besides, the episode tried too hard to convince us that it was BB that I think it has to be someone else.

 

[Saul]

I loved how the flashbacks kept the colors of the netflix series. Really nice touch and homage to what came before.

 

[oktay]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[The Nth Doctor]

FINALLY.

Hopefully that means she's guaranteed for the rest of the season at this point.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Well, I'll say that I was hoping for a little more with Jessica, but given that we haven't even seen all the stuff shown in the previews with her, it's clear she'll be returning.

 

[FPAlpha]

Quick question since i haven't seen the second season of her show - were her powers on the fritz then too? Or is it the result of her having a daughter as she says and that's a new development.

Awesome episode, the tension is ramping up with each storyline.

Karen is coming awfully close to the Punisher arguments, it's practically the same argument only that she's not advocating on doing it herself like Frank would have done but that Matt needs to kill him because it's a justified killing. Their arguments ar egetting more intense each episode as Karen is falling depper into the hole and Matt is this immovable moral mountain that refuses to move.

Daniel is a weak but also nasty weasel, it's too bad that BB is falling for him despite knowing he is in some shit but he is alternatingly too scared to oppose Fisk or Buck and then again is a willing participant. I don't think it'll end well for him.

And the award for weirdest scene of the season goes to Buck and Heather - what the hell kind of kinky trauma therapy was that? Heather is even more damaged than any character in the season and that's saying something.

Loved the fight between Matt und Fisk, especially the first few moves where Matt effortlessly evades until Fisk manages to grab him and draw some blood. Also when Matt finally abandons defense and goes all in, awesome.

Still two episodes to go and i can't wait.

 

[Xerxes82]

The confrontations were the strongest material this week. Karen/Matt, Karen/Bullseye, and Matt/Fisk were all fantastic. Heather is outright broken, but I don't get a clear sense of where the character is going. Unless it's to her comic book fate, and that would also feel really anti-climactic at this point.

I wish they hadn't telegraphed the rebel AVTF officer's death quite so hard. It was obvious what was coming the moment he got his key card back. But I was pleasantly surprised that they had Cole North react negatively to dude's death. Cole has gotten the short end of the plot stick, going from hero in the comics to villain in the show. Be interesting to see if they try to redeem him, or at least gray him up some.

Jessica's appearance, at least this week, was brief but wonderful. Krysten Ritter still lives and breathes this character, even with the status quo change. They didn't do anything to confirm (and thus commit to) Danielle's father, but they weren't terribly subtle about their intentions either. A fun nod for comic book fans that wasn't necessary to the plot anyhow. Interesting that Luke appears to have gone off with the CIA. I'll be curious to see where the character launches upon his now inevitable return.

The fight scenes in this are an interesting switch up from the Netflix era. They keep the violence, but have traded some of the hard edged, grounded hand to hand for more stylized, comic book-y action. And I'm not saying that as a criticism. They have come up with some interesting uses for DD's grappling hook, and this week was probably the best one yet. I don't think the fights are as viscerally entertaining as the Netflix series, nor are there as many memorable moments. But they look slick and there have been some genuinely cool moments.

Quick question since i haven't seen the second season of her show - were her powers on the fritz then too? Or is it the result of her having a daughter as she says and that's a new development.

When last we left Jessica, after S3 of her Netflix show, her powers were fine. This is, as the show stated, something new seemingly related to the birth of her daughter,

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Damn, that was a brutal fight between Matt and Wilson but I'm glad they're both openly acknowledging the damage they've done to each other's lives, even if they won't own up to culpability to the deaths of their respective loved ones.

At the same time, Karen is also in a dark place, and while I'm sympathetic regarding her trauma over Wesley's murder, I won't be happy if she decides to murder (or at least try to murder) Poindexter. It definitely felt like she might have done it if Matt hadn't intervened.

So damn good to have Jessica Jones back. Her snarky rapport with Matt is always a delight and I only wish we had gotten more of her. Considering we haven't seen everything from the trailers (at least two scenes), I think it's a safe bet she'll be back in both of them. Also, it looks like her daughter is Luke Cage's (her name in the comics is Dani, too), although it's odd they didn't name check him.

Speaking of name checks, Father Lantom got a name check, may he rest his soul. But, sadly, it seems like the nurse Matt referred last episode wasn't Claire after all, but instead Angela's aunt Soledad.

The Heather/Buck scene was super weird but mostly because they chose that moment to address Heather's post traumatic stress, in the Fisk bedroom, during Vanessa's wake. I get the connection between Heather and Buck and I get why he would want her to act out on her dark impulses, but why then? Very weird.

Daniel is growing a spine and finally seeing what BB is doing, but I am disappointed that BB was actually the leak. There goes my belief that she was working a long con against him to find proof about Fisk's role in Ben's death.

Quick question since i haven't seen the second season of her show - were her powers on the fritz then too? Or is it the result of her having a daughter as she says and that's a new development.

Like Xerxes82 said, this is a new development and a surprising one to suddenly bring up. I wonder if it's a set-up for next season's arc and what brings Luke and Danny into the story.

And the award for weirdest scene of the season goes to Buck and Heather - what the hell kind of kinky trauma therapy was that? Heather is even more damaged than any character in the season and that's saying something.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who was weirded out by that scene although, again, it was the timing that weirded me out the most.

I wish they hadn't telegraphed the rebel AVTF officer's death quite so hard. It was obvious what was coming the moment he got his key card back.

Yeah, I was disappointed by the telegraphing, too. They should've left it with just Connor Powell calling him Fredo and then pinning his murder on the protesters. Masterful dick move, either way.

 

[Reverend]

Interesting that Luke appears to have gone off with the CIA.

I'm not so sure that's who they were referring to. My money is on Patsy Walker. Even before she spent the best part of a decade locked up on The Raft, she would have jumped at the chance to do this kind of thing full time. With this as her only chance at freedom and atonement, I can't imagine her even hesitating. That plus being a CIA stooge just isn't Luke's style, and all the other candidates we know of (Coleen, Danny, Misty) seem like obvious non-starters.

 

[eschaton]

So, I guess Cherry and Kirsten are basically written off the show now? Not that I'm complaining, as they were Season 1 holdovers that I'm guessing Dario Scardapane didn't have a real place for in the story. I can't see what purpose they'd really have in the final two episodes, save for maybe an epilogue scene.

The stuff with BB and Daniel is tragic, but I don't think it's heading for a dark ending where Daniel turns in BB to Buck. Fisk's fall has begun, and it's pretty much impossible to expect Daniel to go on a full villain arc as the ship is sinking.

I was hoping for Mr. Charles to show up and chew the scenery around Matt, but I guess there's time for that later.

So Dex is still handcuffed to a bed, and now Fisk has Karen. Will Dex break out by himself and go on a further vengeance spree? Or is Matt going to let him out because he needs help getting Karen?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

So, I guess Cherry and Kirsten are basically written off the show now? Not that I'm complaining, as they were Season 1 holdovers that I'm guessing Dario Scardapane didn't have a real place for in the story. I can't see what purpose they'd really have in the final two episodes, save for maybe an epilogue scene.

Yeah, their absences the last few episodes have been noticeable. Once Jack's situation was resolved and the kangaroo trials served their purpose, there isn't any room for Kirsten at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised if she returned next season if Matt tries to reenter society and resume his lawyer work (if for no other reason, to honor Foggy's memory and legacy).

I likewise wouldn't be surprised if Cherry returns next season in the same capacity. His absence has been understandable since there's not much one can do while recovering from a heart attack.

So Dex is still handcuffed to a bed, and now Fisk has Karen. Will Dex break out by himself and go on a further vengeance spree? Or is Matt going to let him out because he needs help getting Karen?

Definitely the latter, which only infuriate Karen even more even if Dex is directly responsible her rescue.

 

[eschaton]

Yeah, their absences the last few episodes have been noticeable. Once Jack's situation was resolved and the kangaroo trials served their purpose, there isn't any room for Kirsten at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised if she returned next season if Matt tries to reenter society and resume his lawyer work (if for no other reason, to honor Foggy's memory and legacy).

I likewise wouldn't be surprised if Cherry returns next season in the same capacity. His absence has been understandable since there's not much one can do while recovering from a heart attack.

Well, all indications are, regarding Season 3, that...

Spoiler

Matt is going to be in prison. I'm judging this both by the picture of Charlie Cox in an orange jumpsuit from the Season 3 photo that dropped the other week, plus the hints from the Brand New Day trailer.

If most of Season 3's arc involves Matt being in prison, I have a hard time seeing how they'll fit a lot of this cast into it.

 

[Xerxes82]

Well, all indications are, regarding Season 3, that...

Spoiler

Matt is going to be in prison. I'm judging this both by the picture of Charlie Cox in an orange jumpsuit from the Season 3 photo that dropped the other week, plus the hints from the Brand New Day trailer.

If most of Season 3's arc involves Matt being in prison, I have a hard time seeing how they'll fit a lot of this cast into it.

An interesting possibility. If they do that, however, I would expect them to use elements from both the Brubaker and Zdarsky runs, and merge them.

Spoiler

Devil in Cell Block D is a great story, and a lot of the elements are in place to adapt it relatively faithfully. It gives them a good and logical place to bring back Danny, in exactly his comic book role. And assuming they use somebody else in Frank's role, Luke actually makes a good bit of sense. Though I think I'd prefer it if Luke is still on the outside. Which leaves the interesting and somewhat ominous possibility of using Bullseye in that role instead.

They will need a new villain, but the fairly different context of the story shouldn't make that overly difficult or problematic.

Also, it goes without saying that they need not hew anywhere near as faithfully to the comic as they could. The MCU has cherry picked and reoriented elements from almost every story they've adapted, often to their benefit. So even with the basic premise in place, Matt at least partially outed as DD and in prison, they could go in wildly different directions. And if they bring in Zdarsky material, then all bets are off. Easy connections to Luke, the CIA material, and even more are readily available. They could really put together something that's super original out of hybridizing elements of the stories and riffing on their own set ups.

Now I just need them to give me Mr Fear and Gladiator and I can be content.

 

[Greg Cox]

I'm not so sure that's who they were referring to. My money is on Patsy Walker. Even before she spent the best part of a decade locked up on The Raft, she would have jumped at the chance to do this kind of thing full time. With this as her only chance at freedom and atonement, I can't imagine her even hesitating. That plus being a CIA stooge just isn't Luke's style, and all the other candidates we know of (Coleen, Danny, Misty) seem like obvious non-starters.

Honestly, I assumed that Jessica's dialogue about people "like us" being recruited by the CIA referred to the Thunderbolts, as seen in the movie.

 

[Reverend]

Honestly, I assumed that Jessica's dialogue about people "like us" being recruited by the CIA referred to the Thunderbolts, as seen in the movie.

Yeah I assumed as much, and I'm pretty sure Valentina de Fontaine was name-dropped in a previous episode; but what I was referring to specifically was when Jessica's said: "Not everyone I know did [tell them to fuck off]." So someone she knows personally sighed up. That plus Matt's penny-drops reaction makes me think Hellcat is now an "Avenger with a Z" . . . or at least thinks she is. Trish always was so very desperate to be a hero.

Side note: Matt asked how Danielle is doing, but didn't ask after Luke. That tells me he either knows full well how Luke's doing (whatever that may entail), or Luke is out of the picture and Jess would have no more clue than he does. I'm betting it's the former. Either way, that seems to implicitly rule him out.

 

[JD]

I realized I never posted my thoughts on last week's episode.
Of course the two big standout plot points are Vanessa's death and the flashbacks with Foggy and Wesley.
I have to admit, they shocked me twice with Vanessa, I had assumed she died after the attack on the boxing match, so I was shocked she was actually still alive. And then they got me again when they killed her at the end.
It was great to see Foggy and Wesley again, and the flashbacks with Fisk and Vanessa were a nice look at what lead up to their first meeting.
I loved seeing Jessica again this week, although I was a little disappointed she wasn't in more. The way they introduced her was especially great, although I was a little shocked in her meeting with Matt that they didn't at least give an explicit name drop for Luke. I had assumed he was the one who went to work for the CIA, Trish hadn't occurred to me, but she would make more sense.
The whole scene with Heather and Buck in the bedroom was definitely weird and creepy. I'm still not really sure what the make of where they're taking Heather's character.
The big confrontation between Matt and Karen over Bullseye was great, I'm just hoping all of this won't irreparable damage to their relationship.
I'm a little surprised to see so many people thought someone other than BB was the leak, I had assumed that was pretty solidly confirmed the moment we saw her take off the Kingpin mask after filming her video. I'm definitely curious where they're taking her and Daniel, he doesn't seem to have gone far enough to be totally irredeemable yet. I'm curious if her not putting Daniel's BS about Fisk not running for reelection will be enough to get Buck to back off.

 

[Greg Cox]

Would've been funny if, when Jessica mentioned "people like us," Matt's first reaction had been:

"She-Hulk?"

(I suppose it's not surprising that, given the overall tone of this series, Matt's carefree fling with Jennifer has not been referenced yet.)

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Are you sure the “people like us” bit referred to recruitment for the New Avengers?
The timeline is ambiguous maybe, but I suspect it has more to do with Val’s experiments that lead to Sentry.
Isn’t it more likely those working for the CIA ended up in body bags to be incinerated?

 

[Reverend]

Would've been funny if, when Jessica mentioned "people like us," Matt's first reaction had been:

"She-Hulk?"

(I suppose it's not surprising that, given the overall tone of this series, Matt's carefree fling with Jennifer has not been referenced yet.)

I'd honestly like to see how they would even handle Jennifer appearing on a show like this. Tatiana Maslany certainly has the acting chops for a more grounded drama, and I can't think of anyone else Matt would get to represent him if he ever winds up in handcuffs.