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Spoilers Daredevil: Born Again discussion thread

Well. Fuck.

When Bullseye talked about balancing the scales (one good deed from him?!), I honestly didn't think he would actually succeed. In that moment, I simultaneously thought Vanessa would die and Fisk managed to save her, and yet I was still shocked Bullseye hit his target, which I know I shouldn't be. I'm sorry to see Vanessa killed off because, as oppose to my incorrect assumption about Cherry, there's no way she'll survive.

I cannot fathom how utterly unhinged Fisk will become now with her death. Fisk will tear down the very city he loves to find Bullseye for Vanessa's murder and to find Daredevil for stopping Fisk from getting immediate revenge.

Even though everything before those final minutes pale in comparison, the rest of the episode was great, too, most notably Bullseye's deliberately luring of AVTF officers to a diner and quickly slaughtering, all to the tune of Billy Joel's "New York State of Mind." I particularly loved how Bullseye took a moment to chastise a diner patron for bringing his dog to a restaurant before resuming his killing (that resonated with me since I work in a restaurant).

I loved seeing Daredevil and Bullseye's long overdue rematch, enabling Matt to finally confront Bullseye physically for Foggy's murder. But I loved even more watching Matt going into full detective mode by playing undercover as a fucking AVTF officer to track Poindexter down in the first place.

I am, however, bummed out how Matt, Karen, and Kirsten's efforts to locate and get the Northern Star first mate, Christofi Savva, on the record about what really happened that night...only for Buck to murder him as soon as the U.S. Marshals had him in protective custody (talk about shitty protection!). The recorded evidence will help but that will undoubtedly not be nearly enough to do anything to Fisk, who will just cast it aside as propaganda.

I'm also sorry to see Jack Duquesne leave but at least he gave Matt and Karen financial backing before stepping away. Fingers crossed for a surprise return in the finale but I'm not holding my breath.

Lots of great callbacks to the original show. The brief glimpses of Matty, Fogwell's Gym, Matt's Catholicism (although I wish this show would explore it more), and Poindexter's meditation sessions (I seem to recall they were all destroyed but perhaps he found more copies of them).
 
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Wow, Vanessa's death was a huge shock, I did not see that coming at all. As scary as Fisk can be, the thought of him after her death is truly terrifying.
Loved all the stuff with Bullsey, especially the fight between him and Daredevil in his apartment. I can't imagine how hard it must have been for Matt to save Poindexter after he killed Vanessa.
I wasn't to surprised that the Northern Star's first mate was killed, but I had expected the Marshal's to be working with Fisk.
I'm curious if we're going to eventually see Angela in a full White Tiger costume. Does Matt have the mask still? I did notice that they're dressing her in white and black now.
 
Well, that was interesting.

They telegraphed Vanessa's death really hard, but I didn't think it would come this early. The echoes from Matt and Foggy to Fisk and Vanessa is really well done.

Bullseye is my favorite. Bethel and the writers have made this character so fascinating. I don't even like him in the comics, save for action beats. But this is extraordinary.

The shit has hit the fan. I can't wait to see where we go from here.
 
I know it makes for good TV, but I don't think an injury like Vanessa's would result in death.

Head injuries bleed like hell, it's true. But she hadn't come close to bleeding out enough for that to do her in. And even if the glass had broken her skull/entered her brain, that actually reduces the risk of immediate death, as the blood on the brain can escape and not build up pressure.

There's records of absolutely grievous head injuries that people have not only survived, but even maintained consciousness through. Look up the case of Phineas Gage, for example.

Now, everything in the narrative is telegraphing her death, but if they were going to be medically accurate, she should just be out of commission in the hospital for awhile. Maybe in a medically induced coma if they want to keep her off the table/keep Fisk angry.
 
I know it makes for good TV, but I don't think an injury like Vanessa's would result in death.

Head injuries bleed like hell, it's true. But she hadn't come close to bleeding out enough for that to do her in. And even if the glass had broken her skull/entered her brain, that actually reduces the risk of immediate death, as the blood on the brain can escape and not build up pressure.

There's records of absolutely grievous head injuries that people have not only survived, but even maintained consciousness through. Look up the case of Phineas Gage, for example.

Now, everything in the narrative is telegraphing her death, but if they were going to be medically accurate, she should just be out of commission in the hospital for awhile. Maybe in a medically induced coma if they want to keep her off the table/keep Fisk angry.
I’d rather it be dramatically interesting than medically accurate.
 
I dunno. They could have had a shard land in her neck or chest. Presumably, they chose the head for a reason.
Met their blood quota for the episode, Chunk of crystal in the head might be more visual that the old gusher of blood from the neck.

In the comics she's been both dead and comatose. So we shall see.
 
I mean, everything about Bullseye’s improvised projectiles is pretty ridiculous and unrealistic.
The things he uses to kill people…
Many of them have not the mass, inertia, pointiness, too much wind resistance, or material cohesion to do shit in real life.
What’s one more unrealistic death?
 
I mean, everything about Bullseye’s improvised projectiles is pretty ridiculous and unrealistic.
The things he uses to kill people…
Many of them have not the mass, inertia, pointiness, too much wind resistance, or material cohesion to do shit in real life.
What’s one more unrealistic death?
The next time I have to go in to the office, I'm going to practice my straw/toothpick shooting skills :D
 
I mean, everything about Bullseye’s improvised projectiles is pretty ridiculous and unrealistic.
The things he uses to kill people…
Many of them have not the mass, inertia, pointiness, too much wind resistance, or material cohesion to do shit in real life.
What’s one more unrealistic death?
And wouldn't bouncing all around also take off a lot of the momentum?
But I agree that he's a fantastic character, mainly just because of Wilson Bethel's performance. People like him who can play the nice guy when they're not being a psychotic killer are a lot more interesting. and scarier, than the people who are just totally violent and out of control 24/7.
One issue I have had so far this season is the lack of acknowledgement of other New York based heroes like Spider-Man or Strange and Wong. I understand this is a Daredevil story so he's going to be the focus, but now especially with this now being more solidly in the MCU, it would be nice to get at least some acknowledgement that there are heroes in New York beyond the Defenders characters. Wasn't he Mayor Fisk storyline in the comics a big crossover?
 
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One issue I have had so far this season is the lack of acknowledgement of other New York based heroes like Spider-Man or Strange and Wong. I understand this is a Daredevil story so he's going to be the focus, but now especially with this now being more solidly in the MCU, it would be nice to get at least some acknowledgement that there are heroes in New York beyond the Defenders characters. Wasn't he Mayor Fisk storyline in the comics a big crossover?

Going forward, Marvel wants to keep the TV universe and the movie universe more separated, so I wouldn't be surprised even if there's greater continuity with the old Defenders stuff we don't have many references to the movies.

The characters it makes sense to pop up here are Kate Bishop and Kamala Khan, though tonally I think having them in this story wouldn't work well at all. Though if they do eventually do that Champions show, they can slide in the new White Tiger right in their lineup.
 
Strange and Wong typically do not concern themselves with crime and corruption.
They would a be a non issue to the AVTF.
Spidey is a different story.
But the season is not over yet.
 
Going forward, Marvel wants to keep the TV universe and the movie universe more separated, so I wouldn't be surprised even if there's greater continuity with the old Defenders stuff we don't have many references to the movies.
Oh, I didn't realize that. I thought they were trying to keep everything tightly connected.
One thing that occurred to me as an explanation is if they're categorizing "vigilantes" and "super heroes", with the lower powered street level heroes as vigilantes, and the upper level more powerful heroes like Wong, Strange, and Spider-Man as "super heroes". And so ATVF is only going after the street level vigilantes and not super heroes.
 
Oh, I didn't realize that. I thought they were trying to keep everything tightly connected.
One thing that occurred to me as an explanation is if they're categorizing "vigilantes" and "super heroes", with the lower powered street level heroes as vigilantes, and the upper level more powerful heroes like Wong, Strange, and Spider-Man as "super heroes". And so ATVF is only going after the street level vigilantes and not super heroes.

I mean, in Season 1, Kingpin explicitly referenced Spider-Man, so I think he counts as a vigilante in universe. Which makes sense, because a lot of his adventures have to do with defeating street-level crime (particularly around his home turf in Queens). In contrast, while Dr. Strange has his home base in NYC, he doesn't deal with street-level stuff at all. Nor, I'm guessing, do the "Avengerz" (who are under Val's protection now, anyway, and hence off limits for Fisk).

Kamala is probably thanking her lucky stars she's across the Hudson, and doesn't have to worry about Fisk and can be Jersey City's local superhero. Which is great, because tonally she's all wrong for Daredevil (her dad didn't even work last season, though that was a holdover from the original show before the old showrunners were fired).

Kate Bishop, however, is a more mature, darker character, and I think could work quite well here. Not to mention Hailee Steinfeld is going to be 30 this December, and is aging out of a Young Avengers/Champions lineup. Plus they now have a mutual acquaintance in Swordsman. She could take Angela del Toro under her wing or something in Season 3. Also helps she's not superpowered, so her inclusion would be cheap in terms of VFX.

The best potential matchup though tonally would be Moon Knight. Though the show took place mostly in London, he normally spends most of his time in NYC, and would slot well into the show. Problem is, I'm not sure Oscar Isaac would return to be a supporting character in the show headlined by less famous actors. Plus he's a very VFX-intensive character (this could be somewhat lessened if we don't see things from his POV and thus have no return of Khonsu, but only a bit).
 
Now, didn't technically FIsk kill his wife? He was deflecting the object meant to kill him, but in his fury, didn't see how the impact would have killed his wife.

I thought Bullseye was thrown off his game by Matt, so that was why Fisk had a chance to defend himself.

I don't exactly have a handle why Matt would want to to protect Bullseye?
 
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