Crossover with other franchises?

[JRoss]

Wow. So I just posted something that I thought was a fun little theory. And fur seems to be flying.

Problem seems to be: Christopher being too analytical about my theory, and me, omaha and stalker being too passionate about how KJA has ruined Dune.

And, Christopher, I did see that KJA quote for your book when I was looking it up on Amazon, right after I posted my thing about you being better than him. I'm perfectly capable of analytically and calmly listing KJA's weaknesses as an author, but this is not the thread for that.

So, anyhoo, how about Godzilla/Transformers?

 

[Christopher]

So, anyhoo, how about Godzilla/Transformers?

Hard to say. There are so many different timelines/continuities for both. Are we talking Showa/Generation 1, Heisei/Prime, or heaven forfend, Emmerich/Bay?

 

[iarann]

Bullshit. And Christopher, you just attacked ME, by categorizing my profound distaste for a hack author ruining a classic as a "hatefest." Trust me, what I said is MILD in comparison to what others have said.

You used the line "it's obvious that the quality is meant to completely spread metaphorical solid organic human waste material all over the original creator's work". How is that not a "hatefest"?

You've just lost a reader. Congratulations. And it's nothing to do with your writing. It's because you're being a jerk. And I wouldn't be so proud of an endorsement by KJA. He can churn out quantity, definitely. Too bad not much of it is quality.

You don't find this statement a little out of hand? Someone politely defended a person who, as a multiple New York Times best selling author, gave him an endorsement, and therefore he loses you as a reader?

My pet peeve, as you call it, is with people who decide to write in another individual's original universe without respecting the in-universe rules that individual created or, if they change the rules, without doing so in a way that enhances the story.

You write fanfic. Crossover fanfic at that. I'm not sure how you feel you have any basis to judge others work. Not everyone hates those books as much as you do; they wouldn't still be selling so well if that was true. People say similar thing about the Star Wars prequels all the time, yet they make billions for George Lucas. A vocal group of fans on the Internet does not mean everyone has a unified opinion on a subject. It that were true the Star Wars prequel trilogy would have ended with Phantom Menace bombing out at the theatre, Firefly would be back on the air, the Dune books would have ended with House Atreides as a massive failure, Ron Paul would be president, JJ Abrams Star Trek movie would have been a massive failure, etc etc.

That being the case, if you dislike something so much, just avoid it. Why do you feel the need to attack others for reading them or accidentally making a reference to them?

Clear enough? You were operating under misinformation, which I corrected. You perceived that as an "attack" on a fellow author, who is more than capable of standing up for himself. Then you attacked me.

So because an someone is capable of defending themselves, that makes it ok to insult them? Do you do this in person too?

As for "derailing the thread" - you're not a moderator here, and kindly refrain from dictating to me which facets of crossovers and writing in somebody else's universe I choose to discuss.

It doesn't take a moderator to point out you are behaving inappropriately.

Why not create a Dune thread over in the "Miscellaneous" part of the board to discuss it? I would love to discuss the issue with you there if you are willing to be a bit more civil in your discourse.

 

[JRoss]

So, anyhoo, how about Godzilla/Transformers?

Hard to say. There are so many different timelines/continuities for both. Are we talking Showa/Generation 1, Heisei/Prime, or heaven forfend, Emmerich/Bay?

The smiley indicates that you are aware of my "too analytical" comment. I'd probably want to see Hesei/Prime, or Hesei/Bay. No love for Bay's films, but the bots look more commercially palatable than G1. I mainly want to see Gigan and Ghidorah team up with Negatron against Big G, Anguirus and Optimus.

 

[Christopher]

I dunno, I think I prefer it when Godzilla's a villain. I could see Megatron trying to goad Godzilla into attacking human cities and the Autobots coming to their defense alongside Heisei-era Mechagodzilla.

 

[JRoss]

Godzilla was at his best in the much-maligned Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidora: Giant Monster All-Out Attack. Those eyes, that malice.

 

[iarann]

Godzilla was at his best in the much-maligned Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidora: Giant Monster All-Out Attack. Those eyes, that malice.

Maligned? That one is considered the best film of the Millennium series. I've never met a Godzilla fan who didn't enjoy it.

 

[Christopher]

I haven't gotten to the Millennium series yet. I'm working my way through the series via Netflix, but I'm only as far as the aforementioned Heisei Mechagodzilla film (which was superb). And I haven't seen the first two Heisei films since they're not on DVD in the states.

 

[R. Star]

Why would I pay money for a crossover novel when I can get hundreds of fanfictions for free anywhere on the internet? If my tastes were so inclined.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I want a comic book based on the Star Trek Mr. Potato Head line. I'm not even sure that's really a crossover but it MUST be done.

 

[iarann]

Why would I pay money for a crossover novel when I can get hundreds of fanfictions for free anywhere on the internet? If my tastes were so inclined.

With that logic, why buy any novel? Generally speaking, the quality if a professionally produced piece is going to be much higher.

 

[R. Star]

Why would I pay money for a crossover novel when I can get hundreds of fanfictions for free anywhere on the internet? If my tastes were so inclined.

With that logic, why buy any novel? Generally speaking, the quality if a professionally produced piece is going to be much higher.

But we're talking crossovers, my friend. That seems to preclude "professionally produced pieces." But, I could be wrong, if there's enough of an audience for the product to sell, someone will buy.

And hey, some fanfictions can be alarmingly good. I recall a series set in a Terran Empire that never fell that was very interesting for example. Though like many fanfictions, this one fell victim to the author losing interest.

But if we're going down this trend, will we be advocating professionally produced slash fictions next?

 

[iarann]

But we're talking crossovers, my friend. That seems to preclude "professionally produced pieces."

Yet Planet X by Michael Jan Friedman was written. I'm not saying it is a good idea, but there is precedence.

 

[JRoss]

I know that there is a lot of hate for GMK because Ghidora is smaller than Godzilla and is a good guy in the film. Those seem like silly reasons to hate, but it's there. I find more haters than anything, even though I love that film.

Christopher, I think that you'd enjoy the Millenium Series' take on Mecha-Godzilla very much. This one is built over the charred skeleton of the original Godzilla.

 

[Rosalind]

oooOOOOoooo.... so somebody's pissed off that I'm not agreeing with him just because he's a published author?

Bullshit. And Christopher, you just attacked ME, by categorizing my profound distaste for a hack author ruining a classic as a "hatefest." Trust me, what I said is MILD in comparison to what others have said.

I DID give you useful information - the page you linked to is pure crap that's NOTHING to do with the actual novel Dune.

You've just lost a reader. Congratulations. And it's nothing to do with your writing. It's because you're being a jerk. And I wouldn't be so proud of an endorsement by KJA. He can churn out quantity, definitely. Too bad not much of it is quality.

Yeah, he has been doing that for years. He lives to needle people and show people up with his "knowledge." He still has no idea why so many people call him Kia behind his back. Who knows? He may even be a halfway-decent writer, but he's such a jerk that he drives potential readers away.

As for KJA, he's a nice enough guy. I've had the pleasure of meeting him several times now, and he's always friendly and personable - online and in person (some writers could learn from that) - but he does live by quantity over quality.

Still, I'm looking forward to Stewartquake, the follow-up to Shatnerquake, but featuring Patrick Stewart and his various characters. Would love to see his characters from Jeffrey and Lifeforce having a chat with Picard. It would be a hoot!

Both of you have earned an infraction for flaming. Comments to PM.

 

[Dantheman]

I just thought that a G.I. Joe/Star Trek crossover would be neat idea. Possible starting point: The mirror universe is a future version of an Earth conquered by Cobra.

 

[doubleohfive]

Oh that'd be just great. Shipwreck and Riker can reminisce about how they both lived through the same plot contrivance over a cold one.

 

[Timewalker]

Clear enough? You were operating under misinformation, which I corrected.

You went way beyond "correcting" it. You took such a vicious attitude that it sounded like you were judging me for my innocent attempt to find some chronological information about the universe. I didn't know what parts were introduced by which author; I was just trying to research the question. And you jumped down my throat for daring to consult a reference that didn't meet with your approval. So hell yes, I felt attacked. Anyone would if they got that kind of vitriol in response to an innocent attempt at research.

Let's review what I said:

This is not a credible site, since it's infested with the retconned KJA/BH "prequels/sequels/interquels" stuff that DIRECTLY contradicts the BASIC established tenets that Frank Herbert set down in the 1960s. It was retconned in the Butlerian Jihad trilogy (a KJA/BH travesty that had robots and cymeks fighting a holy war where the original Frank Herbert novels made it plain that it was opposing camps of HUMANS fighting a holy war of IDEAS and PHILOSOPHY regarding computers/"thinking machines"), and in that trilogy Earth was nuked. This did not happen in the FH novels.

This is not "vitriol." This is a legitimate answer. I said the site was not credible, and why. I made no criticism of you for referencing it. You asked about the Guild Steersmen. Let's review my reply:

The Guild Steersmen are humans who mutate when exposed to the spice gas that expands their consciousness in such a way that they can find safe passage (using foldspace technology) so as to not come out in the middle of a solid object, for example, when emerging from foldspace. My impression is that one either has the genes that allow for this mutation or one doesn't. It's the Tleilaxu that deliberately genetically engineered themselves to be Face Dancers (able to alter their physical appearance at will). Genetically, however, the Tleilaxu are still considered human.

Straightforward answer there - no criticism of anybody. Then I answered your comment about Arrakis:

Yes, of course there's a whole ecosystem on Arrakis. The only weak point I've ever considered of the way the planet was conceived in FH's mind is the oxygen content of the atmosphere. I really don't get how there could be enough, given the extreme scarcity of photosynthesis going on.

Again... a perfectly logical, civil answer. You chose not to acknowledge these answers, though, dismissing them as "not useful" (so it seems from your comment to someone else). Then you started getting nasty with me, and it's my perception that you posted this partly due to our spirited disagreements in other threads about canon and non-canon:

And don't give me that "not part of his vision" line. The stuff I've written for Star Trek wasn't part of Roddenberry's vision either. All that matters is whether something is good or bad. Purism is an illegitimate basis for determining quality.

I tried to explain that the Dune situation is nasty. I didn't know KJA had endorsed your book. But I stand by every word I said about him, based on having read his books and corresponded with him. I tried to put it in terms that you would find more familiar (Star Trek) - and expressed faith in your integrity, that you wouldn't betray the ST legacy so egregiously.

Whereupon you decided to attack me for expressing my distaste for Kevin J. Anderson, calling it a "hatefest." I maintain that what I said here is extremely mild in comparison to what some other people have said - people who, in my opinion, have indeed crossed the boundaries of legitimate criticism of an author's work and made it extremely personal.

Bullshit. And Christopher, you just attacked ME, by categorizing my profound distaste for a hack author ruining a classic as a "hatefest." Trust me, what I said is MILD in comparison to what others have said.

You used the line "it's obvious that the quality is meant to completely spread metaphorical solid organic human waste material all over the original creator's work". How is that not a "hatefest"?

Should I have expressed it the way others have done, and said a different word that is often filtered on forums? Or a different expression entirely that is NOT filtered here, but that I can't fathom why it isn't because it's so incredibly vulgar?

Okay, I was angry. Apologies to everybody who was offended by my choice of vocabulary. Consider that the gist of what I meant was "profoundly disrespect the original creator's work."

You've just lost a reader. Congratulations. And it's nothing to do with your writing.... And I wouldn't be so proud of an endorsement by KJA. He can churn out quantity, definitely. Too bad not much of it is quality.

You don't find this statement a little out of hand? Someone politely defended a person who, as a multiple New York Times best selling author, gave him an endorsement, and therefore he loses you as a reader?

You have misunderstood what I said. I decided to remove Christopher from my reading list because of what he said to me and how he said it, not because Kevin J. Anderson gave him an endorsement.

You write fanfic. Crossover fanfic at that. I'm not sure how you feel you have any basis to judge others work. Not everyone hates those books as much as you do; they wouldn't still be selling so well if that was true. People say similar thing about the Star Wars prequels all the time, yet they make billions for George Lucas. A vocal group of fans on the Internet does not mean everyone has a unified opinion on a subject. It that were true the Star Wars prequel trilogy would have ended with Phantom Menace bombing out at the theatre, Firefly would be back on the air, the Dune books would have ended with House Atreides as a massive failure, Ron Paul would be president, JJ Abrams Star Trek movie would have been a massive failure, etc etc.

Over 35 years as a science fiction reader and Star Trek fan gives me the basis on which to judge others' work. And yes, I write fanfic. However, in my fanfic you won't find wild changes like incest stories in Dune (it was considered anathema in the Imperium, especially among the Fremen), slash fiction, changes in the events of a character's life that had a profound effect on that character as presented by the original creator (thus changing the character's "self", background, motivations, etc.)... In my fanfic I do meticulous research on characters, background events and settings, and that I make every effort to get each character's speech patterns and intonations as authentic as possible. If I'm writing a satire or parody, I make it clear from the get-go, so people who don't like that kind of writing can skip it. So yeah, I think I've got a good basis for judging others' work.

As regards Star Wars, I loved the original versions of the first movies - Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi. I own the VHS versions of those before Lucas started tinkering with them (which he has every right to do, since he owns the rights to them). I found the other Star Wars movies so boring, I couldn't make myself finish watching them. And I don't care if Lucas made 2 cents or 2 billion on those prequel movies. I still don't like them. And it's my right to say so. Same with a novelist. Yes, KJA's books sell well. That doesn't mean they're actually good writing.

That being the case, if you dislike something so much, just avoid it. Why do you feel the need to attack others for reading them or accidentally making a reference to them?

KJA himself asked me why I kept buying the nuDune books if I didn't like them. My reply was that I kept hoping they would improve... but they never did. And I consider that if I'm going to criticize an author's work, the least I can do is make sure it's because I've actually read them and know what my own personal opinions are, instead of parroting stuff other people have said (incidentally, I avoid film critics precisely for this reason - I prefer to make up my own mind). And I attacked nobody here for reading the nuDune books, and I certainly didn't attack Christopher. He was operating from the pov of a misunderstanding, and I corrected him. He's the one who chose to interpret that as an attack.

Clear enough? You were operating under misinformation, which I corrected. You perceived that as an "attack" on a fellow author, who is more than capable of standing up for himself. Then you attacked me.

So because an someone is capable of defending themselves, that makes it ok to insult them? Do you do this in person too?

I'm not stopping Kevin J. Anderson from coming here and defending himself, if he wishes to do so. The fact is that he prefers interacting via social media and email, not forums. In person I criticize people if I think it's warranted. How they defend themselves (or not) is up to them, same as if it were the other way around.

Why not create a Dune thread over in the "Miscellaneous" part of the board to discuss it? I would love to discuss the issue with you there if you are willing to be a bit more civil in your discourse.

I'll consider that, but you would have to understand that I feel very strongly about this issue.

I want a comic book based on the Star Trek Mr. Potato Head line. I'm not even sure that's really a crossover but it MUST be done.

That would be adorable! I guess you could consider it a crossover with the Toy Story movies, since Mr. Potato Head appears in them.

 

[Christopher]

^If you have something to say about Dune, you should follow the suggestion above and say it in a different thread, so that people who are interested in the subject can discuss it there and the rest of us can get back on topic.

 

[JD]

Clear enough? You were operating under misinformation, which I corrected.

You went way beyond "correcting" it. You took such a vicious attitude that it sounded like you were judging me for my innocent attempt to find some chronological information about the universe. I didn't know what parts were introduced by which author; I was just trying to research the question. And you jumped down my throat for daring to consult a reference that didn't meet with your approval. So hell yes, I felt attacked. Anyone would if they got that kind of vitriol in response to an innocent attempt at research.

Let's review what I said:

This is not "vitriol." This is a legitimate answer. I said the site was not credible, and why. I made no criticism of you for referencing it. You asked about the Guild Steersmen. Let's review my reply:

Straightforward answer there - no criticism of anybody. Then I answered your comment about Arrakis:

Again... a perfectly logical, civil answer. You chose not to acknowledge these answers, though, dismissing them as "not useful" (so it seems from your comment to someone else). Then you started getting nasty with me, and it's my perception that you posted this partly due to our spirited disagreements in other threads about canon and non-canon:

I tried to explain that the Dune situation is nasty. I didn't know KJA had endorsed your book. But I stand by every word I said about him, based on having read his books and corresponded with him. I tried to put it in terms that you would find more familiar (Star Trek) - and expressed faith in your integrity, that you wouldn't betray the ST legacy so egregiously.

Whereupon you decided to attack me for expressing my distaste for Kevin J. Anderson, calling it a "hatefest." I maintain that what I said here is extremely mild in comparison to what some other people have said - people who, in my opinion, have indeed crossed the boundaries of legitimate criticism of an author's work and made it extremely personal.



Should I have expressed it the way others have done, and said a different word that is often filtered on forums? Or a different expression entirely that is NOT filtered here, but that I can't fathom why it isn't because it's so incredibly vulgar?

Okay, I was angry. Apologies to everybody who was offended by my choice of vocabulary. Consider that the gist of what I meant was "profoundly disrespect the original creator's work."


You have misunderstood what I said. I decided to remove Christopher from my reading list because of what he said to me and how he said it, not because Kevin J. Anderson gave him an endorsement.


Over 35 years as a science fiction reader and Star Trek fan gives me the basis on which to judge others' work. And yes, I write fanfic. However, in my fanfic you won't find wild changes like incest stories in Dune (it was considered anathema in the Imperium, especially among the Fremen), slash fiction, changes in the events of a character's life that had a profound effect on that character as presented by the original creator (thus changing the character's "self", background, motivations, etc.)... In my fanfic I do meticulous research on characters, background events and settings, and that I make every effort to get each character's speech patterns and intonations as authentic as possible. If I'm writing a satire or parody, I make it clear from the get-go, so people who don't like that kind of writing can skip it. So yeah, I think I've got a good basis for judging others' work.

As regards Star Wars, I loved the original versions of the first movies - Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi. I own the VHS versions of those before Lucas started tinkering with them (which he has every right to do, since he owns the rights to them). I found the other Star Wars movies so boring, I couldn't make myself finish watching them. And I don't care if Lucas made 2 cents or 2 billion on those prequel movies. I still don't like them. And it's my right to say so. Same with a novelist. Yes, KJA's books sell well. That doesn't mean they're actually good writing.


KJA himself asked me why I kept buying the nuDune books if I didn't like them. My reply was that I kept hoping they would improve... but they never did. And I consider that if I'm going to criticize an author's work, the least I can do is make sure it's because I've actually read them and know what my own personal opinions are, instead of parroting stuff other people have said (incidentally, I avoid film critics precisely for this reason - I prefer to make up my own mind). And I attacked nobody here for reading the nuDune books, and I certainly didn't attack Christopher. He was operating from the pov of a misunderstanding, and I corrected him. He's the one who chose to interpret that as an attack.


I'm not stopping Kevin J. Anderson from coming here and defending himself, if he wishes to do so. The fact is that he prefers interacting via social media and email, not forums. In person I criticize people if I think it's warranted. How they defend themselves (or not) is up to them, same as if it were the other way around.

Why not create a Dune thread over in the "Miscellaneous" part of the board to discuss it? I would love to discuss the issue with you there if you are willing to be a bit more civil in your discourse.

I'll consider that, but you would have to understand that I feel very strongly about this issue.

I want a comic book based on the Star Trek Mr. Potato Head line. I'm not even sure that's really a crossover but it MUST be done.

That would be adorable! I guess you could consider it a crossover with the Toy Story movies, since Mr. Potato Head appears in them.

Can't we just move on here, please. And looking at this situation as an someone who knows very little about Dune (I've read up on some of the story when I tried to read the first book a couple years ago), it definitely seems like a bit of an overreaction. We get you don't like post Frank Herbert Dune, we really don't need multi-paragraph posts about how much you hate Kevin J. Anderson and his books.