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Crisis on Infinite Treks???

I love that they have KINGDOME COME superman on that group

Kingdome Come? Ah yes, I remember that now, a variant of the DC Universe where everybody's a huge Seattle sports fan. ;)

Now, of course, that universe has been obliterated and replaced by Qwest Field Come. :lol:

As for alterations in the timeline: Assuming Nero's meddling is not, like other things such as ST:FC, a predestination paradox, I can live with it, as long as Old Spock manages to get things *mostly* back to the way they were. A timeline where everything that we saw happen in the original Trek could still happen. One where Kirk actually has to work his way up the ranks, rather than (and this still gets me)
going straight from Cadet to Captain :guffaw: :guffaw:
. One where
the transporter is not JUST BEING INVENTED RIGHT NOW, BY SCOTTY, but rather was invented by Emory Erickson just like we saw in ENT
. One where Christopher Pike could still meet the fate we saw in 'The Menagerie'. That type of thing.
 
I love that they have KINGDOME COME superman on that group

Kingdome Come? Ah yes, I remember that now, a variant of the DC Universe where everybody's a huge Seattle sports fan. ;)

Now, of course, that universe has been obliterated and replaced by Qwest Field Come. :lol:

As for alterations in the timeline: Assuming Nero's meddling is not, like other things such as ST:FC, a predestination paradox, I can live with it, as long as Old Spock manages to get things *mostly* back to the way they were. A timeline where everything that we saw happen in the original Trek could still happen. One where Kirk actually has to work his way up the ranks, rather than (and this still gets me)
going straight from Cadet to Captain :guffaw: :guffaw:
. One where
the transporter is not JUST BEING INVENTED RIGHT NOW, BY SCOTTY, but rather was invented by Emory Erickson just like we saw in ENT
. One where Christopher Pike could still meet the fate we saw in 'The Menagerie'. That type of thing.
Neither of your "spoilers" form the most reasonable conclusion to be drawn from HIGHLY INCOMPLETE information available so far (I can think of several MORE reasonable inferences that have been stated around here already, but I'll let you discover them for yourself--or reason them out). Why don't you try waiting until you've seen the ACTUAL movie before getting hysterical?
 
I love that they have KINGDOME COME superman on that group

Kingdome Come? Ah yes, I remember that now, a variant of the DC Universe where everybody's a huge Seattle sports fan. ;)

Now, of course, that universe has been obliterated and replaced by Qwest Field Come. :lol:

As for alterations in the timeline: Assuming Nero's meddling is not, like other things such as ST:FC, a predestination paradox, I can live with it, as long as Old Spock manages to get things *mostly* back to the way they were. A timeline where everything that we saw happen in the original Trek could still happen. One where Kirk actually has to work his way up the ranks, rather than (and this still gets me)
going straight from Cadet to Captain :guffaw: :guffaw:
. One where
the transporter is not JUST BEING INVENTED RIGHT NOW, BY SCOTTY, but rather was invented by Emory Erickson just like we saw in ENT
. One where Christopher Pike could still meet the fate we saw in 'The Menagerie'. That type of thing.
Neither of your "spoilers" form the most reasonable conclusion to be drawn from HIGHLY INCOMPLETE information available so far (I can think of several MORE reasonable inferences that have been stated around here already, but I'll let you discover them for yourself--or reason them out). Why don't you try waiting until you've seen the ACTUAL movie before getting hysterical?

Now that would kill all the drama in this thread. And, we NEEDS more drama!


/drama!
 
Since the film has a time travel plot, all Abrams and company have to do is stay true to continuity in the 24th century scenes, show the temporal incursion, and then from there onward (including any sequels), we're in an altered timeline.
Time travel stories are absurd.

For the sake of argument, let's say that backwards time travel is possible, and that I was able to determine what the 'proper' timeline was. If I were trying to 'repair' damage to my timeline, I wouldn't travel back just far enough to not quite fix things. I'd either travel back a short while and stop the villian from leaving at all, or I'd travel back far enough to intercept him and foil his plot before it began.

It's far better to steer clear of such stories in the first place.

---------------
 
As for alterations in the timeline: Assuming Nero's meddling is not, like other things such as ST:FC, a predestination paradox, I can live with it, as long as Old Spock manages to get things *mostly* back to the way they were. A timeline where everything that we saw happen in the original Trek could still happen. One where Kirk actually has to work his way up the ranks, rather than (and this still gets me)
going straight from Cadet to Captain :guffaw: :guffaw:
. One where
the transporter is not JUST BEING INVENTED RIGHT NOW, BY SCOTTY, but rather was invented by Emory Erickson just like we saw in ENT
. One where Christopher Pike could still meet the fate we saw in 'The Menagerie'. That type of thing.
Neither of your "spoilers" form the most reasonable conclusion to be drawn from HIGHLY INCOMPLETE information available so far (I can think of several MORE reasonable inferences that have been stated around here already, but I'll let you discover them for yourself--or reason them out). Why don't you try waiting until you've seen the ACTUAL movie before getting hysterical?

I'm not hysterical. Trust me, if I was, you'd know. ;)

And if I'm wrong about either of these things, do you have a better explanation?
 
Since the film has a time travel plot, all Abrams and company have to do is stay true to continuity in the 24th century scenes, show the temporal incursion, and then from there onward (including any sequels), we're in an altered timeline.
Time travel stories are absurd.

For the sake of argument, let's say that backwards time travel is possible, and that I was able to determine what the 'proper' timeline was. If I were trying to 'repair' damage to my timeline, I wouldn't travel back just far enough to not quite fix things. I'd either travel back a short while and stop the villian from leaving at all, or I'd travel back far enough to intercept him and foil his plot before it began.

It's far better to steer clear of such stories in the first place.

---------------

I agree with you and Captain Janeway: it is better to steer clear of time travel. I also agree with the OP that this is likely what we will see in STXI, an in-continuity Infinite Crisis type reboot.

As to why Spock doesn't simply go back and stop Nero from doing ANYTHING (since it seems clear he doesn't) for the sake of this outing, I would imagine that Spock is somehow unable to go back far enough to fix the damage. However, if you inject a little multiple universe theory in there, Old Spock didn't really travel back to his own past, he travelled back to another universe that at least until whenever Nero popped up, was identical to his, but then took a divergence.

What puzzles me is how Spock would notice this unless he travels back to the point where Nero instigates everything and is trapped there for years until Kirk grows up and he has a good shot at 'fixing things,' unable to time travel again. Perhaps his ship has a one-time-only function, or he stowed away on the Supersquid and escaped? Surely Vulcans aren't now immune to temporal shifts like certain El-Aurians?

The whole 'there's a universe where every possibility happens' thing has always irked me slightly but seems to be a valid concern with this apparent plot point. If you travel back to change the past, and succeed, then you displace your original future because you have shifted into one of the other universes where your desired outcome occurred. Okay. So let's say that, like in this case, you (or here Old Spock) are unhappy with the results. Instead of trying to 'correct' the timeline, why not simply figure out how to go back to the quantum universe where your 'past' is still intact (a la TNG's 'Parallels'), or is that harder than rewriting the future history of another timeline (the alternate reality you have found yourself in)? Or is that what you are in essence doing by trying to correct the timeline? Then, does the very act of time travelling with the intention of changing time somehow in and of itself displace you from your original quantum reality, as if the point to which you have travelled is a shatterpoint from which realities diverge?

But really if there's a universe for EVERY possibility, then EVERY MOMENT is a shatterpoint, and making just one decision renders you instantly displaced. So simply by virtue of being in the past where (presumably) in the original timeline you weren't (excepting predestination paradox) you have INSTANTLY displaced yourself from your own timeline universe. So in Star Trek IV, Kirk and company appear to have really traveled to their own past because -- they did. They gave Dr. Nichols the formula which he is credited to because they gave it to him originally. However, in the upcoming film, there presumably was no time-foolery in Kirk and co.'s past originally (based on the notion that the timeline is different due to Nero's interference), so simply by virtue of the act of time travelling Nero and Old Spock have travelled to an alternate timeline.

The point of this rant/intellectual exercise I think ultimately proves that the 'past' we see is another universe simply by virtue of the presence of Nero and Old Spock, given that Nero's appearance and destruction of the Kelvin did not originally occur and was the primary point of noticeable divergence for everything that subsequently occurs. As a TOS purist, that makes me a little more accepting of what is almost certain to come of this movie - a total reboot of the Trek universe into something only vaguely similar to what we have seen and a relegation of the old universe to Earth-2 status - and more able to judge the film on its own merits. In that regard at least, despite how successful the movie ultimately proves to be, I'd say Abrams is successful.

And now my head hurts.:rommie:
 
I agree with you and Captain Janeway: it is better to steer clear of time travel. I also agree with the OP that this is likely what we will see in STXI, an in-continuity Infinite Crisis type reboot.

As to why Spock doesn't simply go back and stop Nero from doing ANYTHING (since it seems clear he doesn't) for the sake of this outing, I would imagine that Spock is somehow unable to go back far enough to fix the damage. However, if you inject a little multiple universe theory in there, Old Spock didn't really travel back to his own past, he travelled back to another universe that at least until whenever Nero popped up, was identical to his, but then took a divergence.

What puzzles me is how Spock would notice this unless he travels back to the point where Nero instigates everything and is trapped there for years until Kirk grows up and he has a good shot at 'fixing things,' unable to time travel again. Perhaps his ship has a one-time-only function, or he stowed away on the Supersquid and escaped? Surely Vulcans aren't now immune to temporal shifts like certain El-Aurians?

See this is all getting into why I think the time travel reboot choice is a really bad idea. First, it begs a host of messy time travel questions that in order to not bog down the story's pacing, either have to be ignored or have to be technobabbled away - and both solutions are unsatisfying, though the third alternative of spending some time working it out is even worse because then you're interrupted the flow of the tale and no answer you come up with is going to work anyway.

The whole 'there's a universe where every possibility happens' thing has always irked me slightly but seems to be a valid concern with this apparent plot point. If you travel back to change the past, and succeed, then you displace your original future because you have shifted into one of the other universes where your desired outcome occurred. Okay. So let's say that, like in this case, you (or here Old Spock) are unhappy with the results. Instead of trying to 'correct' the timeline, why not simply figure out how to go back to the quantum universe where your 'past' is still intact (a la TNG's 'Parallels'), or is that harder than rewriting the future history of another timeline (the alternate reality you have found yourself in)? Or is that what you are in essence doing by trying to correct the timeline? Then, does the very act of time travelling with the intention of changing time somehow in and of itself displace you from your original quantum reality, as if the point to which you have travelled is a shatterpoint from which realities diverge?

But really if there's a universe for EVERY possibility, then EVERY MOMENT is a shatterpoint, and making just one decision renders you instantly displaced. So simply by virtue of being in the past where (presumably) in the original timeline you weren't (excepting predestination paradox) you have INSTANTLY displaced yourself from your own timeline universe. So in Star Trek IV, Kirk and company appear to have really traveled to their own past because -- they did. They gave Dr. Nichols the formula which he is credited to because they gave it to him originally. However, in the upcoming film, there presumably was no time-foolery in Kirk and co.'s past originally (based on the notion that the timeline is different due to Nero's interference), so simply by virtue of the act of time travelling Nero and Old Spock have travelled to an alternate timeline.

The other problem of all this is that the multiple universes theory is a byzantine construct invented to try to solve some of the paradoxes of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics, and probably has no basis in any physical reality anyway.

The point of this rant/intellectual exercise I think ultimately proves that the 'past' we see is another universe simply by virtue of the presence of Nero and Old Spock, given that Nero's appearance and destruction of the Kelvin did not originally occur and was the primary point of noticeable divergence for everything that subsequently occurs. As a TOS purist, that makes me a little more accepting of what is almost certain to come of this movie - a total reboot of the Trek universe into something only vaguely similar to what we have seen and a relegation of the old universe to Earth-2 status - and more able to judge the film on its own merits. In that regard at least, despite how successful the movie ultimately proves to be, I'd say Abrams is successful.

Hmmm - I've been of the opinion that ultimately it's just a way for them to cover their asses and be able to say to that small contingent of canonites that, hey, it's just another timeline (and, as you note, it's actually the opposite of Crisis on Infinite Earths, too - instead of removing a multiverse, it is introducing one) - and chances are they are going to be entirely unforgiving of any changes anyway. But if you say it'll help you judge the story less harshly, maybe it'll be worth it. I just find time travel a often hacneyed device and I couldn't care less about them rebooting. I mean, it's all just fiction. Still, maybe I shouldn't begrudge my fellow fans something that will help them ease into a new interpretation.

And it got Nimoy a job, so that's nice.
 
I've been of the opinion that ultimately it's just a way for them to cover their asses and be able to say to that small contingent of canonites that, hey, it's just another timeline... and chances are they are going to be entirely unforgiving of any changes anyway.
I agree. From what I've seen, it would have been better had they forgone the time travel and made a clean break with 'what we know' than to try and integrate this movie into existing Star Trek canon.

---------------
 
As for alterations in the timeline: Assuming Nero's meddling is not, like other things such as ST:FC, a predestination paradox, I can live with it, as long as Old Spock manages to get things *mostly* back to the way they were. A timeline where everything that we saw happen in the original Trek could still happen. One where Kirk actually has to work his way up the ranks, rather than (and this still gets me)
going straight from Cadet to Captain :guffaw: :guffaw:
. One where
the transporter is not JUST BEING INVENTED RIGHT NOW, BY SCOTTY, but rather was invented by Emory Erickson just like we saw in ENT
. One where Christopher Pike could still meet the fate we saw in 'The Menagerie'. That type of thing.
Neither of your "spoilers" form the most reasonable conclusion to be drawn from HIGHLY INCOMPLETE information available so far (I can think of several MORE reasonable inferences that have been stated around here already, but I'll let you discover them for yourself--or reason them out). Why don't you try waiting until you've seen the ACTUAL movie before getting hysterical?

I'm not hysterical. Trust me, if I was, you'd know. ;)

And if I'm wrong about either of these things, do you have a better explanation?
How about this:
There is a jump of several years between the 'grad' ceremony and the crisis that causes Kirk to be 'promoted'--Abrams is quite fond of such "jumps" in time (back and forth, even when time travel itself is not at play)--given the change in McCoy's demeanor in two stills, I'd say it's a plausible alternative. It may indeed be "cadet to captain" in a week--but I see nothing that suggests that outcome as MORE likely than the one I've described. As for Scotty, he's not "inventing" the transporter--he's modifying in a major way and he screws up. See how easy that was? Besides, none of the spoilers say he's "inventing" it--just that he messed up in his experiment.
 
See this is all getting into why I think the time travel reboot choice is a really bad idea. First, it begs a host of messy time travel questions that in order to not bog down the story's pacing, either have to be ignored or have to be technobabbled away - and both solutions are unsatisfying, though the third alternative of spending some time working it out is even worse because then you're interrupted the flow of the tale and no answer you come up with is going to work anyway.

I don't think this is going to be as hard to reconcile on screen as some may think. In fact, Trek's done it before. In First Contact, they explained away all the time-travel bullshit with the Enterprise being caught in a "temporal wake" or something. Ludicrous? Yes. But it cost about 15 seconds of screen time to ask the question and answer it, so who cares?
 
See this is all getting into why I think the time travel reboot choice is a really bad idea. First, it begs a host of messy time travel questions that in order to not bog down the story's pacing, either have to be ignored or have to be technobabbled away - and both solutions are unsatisfying, though the third alternative of spending some time working it out is even worse because then you're interrupted the flow of the tale and no answer you come up with is going to work anyway.

I don't think this is going to be as hard to reconcile on screen as some may think. In fact, Trek's done it before. In First Contact, they explained away all the time-travel bullshit with the Enterprise being caught in a "temporal wake" or something. Ludicrous? Yes. But it cost about 15 seconds of screen time to ask the question and answer it, so who cares?

They should not have to adress this, like, at all, in the first place.
 
See this is all getting into why I think the time travel reboot choice is a really bad idea. First, it begs a host of messy time travel questions that in order to not bog down the story's pacing, either have to be ignored or have to be technobabbled away - and both solutions are unsatisfying, though the third alternative of spending some time working it out is even worse because then you're interrupted the flow of the tale and no answer you come up with is going to work anyway.

I don't think this is going to be as hard to reconcile on screen as some may think. In fact, Trek's done it before. In First Contact, they explained away all the time-travel bullshit with the Enterprise being caught in a "temporal wake" or something. Ludicrous? Yes. But it cost about 15 seconds of screen time to ask the question and answer it, so who cares?

I didn't say it would be hard, I said it would be unsatisfying - as in requiring anyone who repeats it to note that it's ludicrous. And, unless Spock is already aware that some random future Romulan is planning to muck up time, it's gonna be hard for him to be following Nero when the changes go down and so a little more explanation is going to be necessary, or whatever ten second technobabble they give is going to be that much more unsatisfying. But if the story is satisfying, as First Contact was, it's easier to be forgiving of such things. We'll just have to wait and see.
 
My friend had a theory about Prime Spock (Leonard Nimoy). He speculates that he's trying to get rid of all the bad writing and episodes of Trek, thus creating a better Trek minus a majority of the third season, TFF, TUC, all the TNG movies, VOY, and a majority of ENT.:rommie:
 
I would imagine that Spock is somehow unable to go back far enough to fix the damage.

Do you suspect that Spock, being a (mostly) pacifist Vulcan, would not allow himself to simply go back and prevent Nero's *birth*? Failing that, he could simply abduct infant Nero and take him to Vulcan to be raised as one.
 
Given how utterly horrible Infinite Crisis was, I sincerely hope the C word stays well away from Star Trek.
 
"Crisis On Infinite Earths" was a great series.

Great how? I have never once in ten years on geek message boards heard anyone discuss it except in terms of how it affected DC continuity.

I haven't carried on conversations about it on geek message boards - until, I suppose, this moment - so I've never taken fandom's pulse. I remember really, really enjoying it as it appeared, which is the only standard of comic book goodness I give much thought to.
 
See this is all getting into why I think the time travel reboot choice is a really bad idea. First, it begs a host of messy time travel questions that in order to not bog down the story's pacing, either have to be ignored or have to be technobabbled away - and both solutions are unsatisfying, though the third alternative of spending some time working it out is even worse because then you're interrupted the flow of the tale and no answer you come up with is going to work anyway.

The other problem of all this is that the multiple universes theory is a byzantine construct invented to try to solve some of the paradoxes of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics, and probably has no basis in any physical reality anyway.

Hmmm - I've been of the opinion that ultimately it's just a way for them to cover their asses and be able to say to that small contingent of canonites that, hey, it's just another timeline (and, as you note, it's actually the opposite of Crisis on Infinite Earths, too - instead of removing a multiverse, it is introducing one) - and chances are they are going to be entirely unforgiving of any changes anyway. But if you say it'll help you judge the story less harshly, maybe it'll be worth it. I just find time travel a often hacneyed device and I couldn't care less about them rebooting. I mean, it's all just fiction. Still, maybe I shouldn't begrudge my fellow fans something that will help them ease into a new interpretation.

And it got Nimoy a job, so that's nice.

Forgive me for snipping myself out but I wanted to address your comments and not repeat myself. Lapis, I actually quite agree with your point about the time travel being a hackneyed and overused device, particuarly in Star Trek. However, I wonder if in 'the story he always wanted to tell' Abrams wants to tell a time travel story that happens to be involved with the origins of Kirk and his crew, or a Kirk origin story with time travel tacked on as a fan concession? Time travel seems to be an intrinsic part of his premise, but was the concession to continuity an afterthought or part of the plan?

I know I'm somewhat contradicting myself here, but I wish, if J.J. wanted to do a reboot, he would have done a full reboot and acknowledged it, or if he wanted to be true to the pre-established Trek Universe, he could have done that and called it such. I'm not sure which I would have preferred, but I know I would be much happier with the a self-admitted reboot that doesn't bother to busy itself with acknowledging the past. We clearly have a time travel story in which large parts of the Trek Universe have been changed as part of the story. Whether these are changes that Abrams wanted to make for the sake of the story, or whether they serve the story, I think, is the ultimate question that we will have to wait til May to find out.

It certainly appears at this point that he actually wanted to tell a time travel story here and is also using it to reboot the franchise -- a poor decision from two different directions, IMHO, but the fan in me will go and I will watch and I will judge it for what it is.

And then the critic in me will dissect it. :rommie:
 
"Crisis On Infinite Earths" was a great series.

Great how? I have never once in ten years on geek message boards heard anyone discuss it except in terms of how it affected DC continuity.

I haven't carried on conversations about it on geek message boards - until, I suppose, this moment - so I've never taken fandom's pulse. I remember really, really enjoying it as it appeared, which is the only standard of comic book goodness I give much thought to.

Crisis couldn't have been *that* great, if only for the fact that DC keeps having to write NEW crises (Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis) because they can never seem to tie up the loose ends enough.
 
Crisis couldn't have been *that* great, if only for the fact that DC keeps having to write NEW crises (Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis) because they can never seem to tie up the loose ends enough.

Nope. You're talking about what it achieved or didn't in terms of continuity. I'm talking about the experience of reading it as a series. I found it to be great. If you didn't, you didn't. It's all the same. :)
 
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