Hakuna Matata. I am far from the classrooms containing the bones of my ancestors. I am Chakotay, of the Rubber Band people.Chakotay makes me cringe. The writing for him was so bad.
Cringe moments in otherwise good episodes
- Thread starter GulBahana
- Start date
I got another one: "Imperfection." I just re-watched it today, and while it's still not a favorite, it's better than I remembered. If one thing ruined it, it was that obnoxious "West Wing" in-joke. Seven of Nine pulls up a list of crewmembers Voyager has lost over the years, but only three are real characters. (Lyndsay Ballard, Marie Kaplan, and Timothy Lang.) The rest are all characters from "the West Wing." And three of them are commanders, which doesn't even make sense. This should have been a poignant moment where we saw names like Stadi, Cavitt, Lon Suder, Kurt Bendera, etc. Instead we get seven generic American names that screw up continuity, for the sake of a stupid in-joke.
To maintain my sanity, I've decided that the computer was glitching out, due to damage from the battle with the Borg in the previous episode. The damaged computer somehow pulled names from one of Tom Paris's 20th Century Earth programs that he watches on his TV set. Had Seven scrolled further she'd have seen Al Capone and Bugs Bunny listed as well.
To maintain my sanity, I've decided that the computer was glitching out, due to damage from the battle with the Borg in the previous episode. The damaged computer somehow pulled names from one of Tom Paris's 20th Century Earth programs that he watches on his TV set. Had Seven scrolled further she'd have seen Al Capone and Bugs Bunny listed as well.
Did the actor that played Henry Janeway (Kevin Tighe) also play the Zodiac Killer?
To be honest I'm not sure what the Zodiac Killer connection is here. But I don't doubt that this episode has killed as many people as the Zodiac with sheer boredom.
I'm still on the early episodes of season 3, but the cringiest moment for me so far was B'Elanna's vision of Chakotay in S2E8 Persistence of Vision. From my perspective, it was completely out of the blue. It had no consequences for the plot of the following episodes. So I don't understand why they couldn't just let them be friends and come up with something else.
It wouldn't surprise me if the actor did. I mostly see him playing bad guys. However when he was younger he played fireman/paramedic Roy DeSoto on the series Emergency.
They were under the Bothan's control when this event happened.
It didn't effect their friendship siince B'Elanna didn't tell Chakotay about it.
As for the episode itself, it is my second favorite VOY episode after Cold Fire.
I agree, the episode is really great!They were under the Bothan's control when this event happened.
It didn't effect their friendship siince B'Elanna didn't tell Chakotay about it.
As for the episode itself, it is my second favorite VOY episode after Cold Fire.
This moment just didn't see that exact moment coming. I adore the friendship between B'Elanna and Chakotay and I'm glad they didn't ruin it with that specific twist.
I really love "ALLIANCES".
Except Janeway's speech at the end. Frankly, it just brings the episode down a point. It felt cringey because it seems like she did not learn a single thing from the events of that episode.
Except Janeway's speech at the end. Frankly, it just brings the episode down a point. It felt cringey because it seems like she did not learn a single thing from the events of that episode.
For me, it was like, the early part of the episode presented a very real problem. And Janeway's speech was basically "we haven't solved our problem but it's Ok because we're Starfleet." Ugghhh.
And that is part of what I mean when she learned nothing from it.For me, it was like, the early part of the episode presented a very real problem. And Janeway's speech was basically "we haven't solved our problem but it's Ok because we're Starfleet." Ugghhh.
John Carroll Lynch (11:59) played Arthur Leigh Allen, the most well-known Zodiac Killer suspect, in the 2007 David Fincher film Zodiac. That movie heavily implies the real-life Allen was indeed the guy, significantly embellishing the circumstantial evidence against him, but, as I said, subsequent research has convinced me at least that "Z" was actually a a guy named Paul Doerr, who wasn't on anyone's radar until years after the movie came out.
(Was that guy not actually the Janeway ancestor? Oh, well, haven't seen the ep.
)
In what way was it embellished?
The film actually leaves out some of the evidence against him, namely that one of the surviving victims ( Hartnell ) was played a recording of his voice and identified it as the voice of his attacker.
^ IIRC, there are several examples, but most dramatic embellishment is the climax of the Graysmith investigation story, when Graysmith learns that a guy claiming to be Z on a phone call told Melvin Belli's housekeeper it was his birthday, and that that date happened to also be Arthur Lee Allen's birthday. This is portrayed as even convincing Toschi of Allen's guilt on the spot, even though he says it's not enough for a conviction. IIRC, however, that caller's claim was invented by the movie, and the call itself is generally agreed to not have been Z in the first place. (It's also ludicrous that the police could have not learned that same claimed identifier from the housekeeper during their investigation, and then not compared it to the birthday of everyone they researched, leaving it to be an aha! moment of an amateur like Graysmith. I very much love the movie overall, but, come on.)
Anyhow, like I said, Z was almost certainly Doerr; read the above-linked article. Arthur Lee Allen was certainly a creep, but the evidence against him is purely circumstantial, and hardly convincing.
Anyhow, like I said, Z was almost certainly Doerr; read the above-linked article. Arthur Lee Allen was certainly a creep, but the evidence against him is purely circumstantial, and hardly convincing.
Last edited:
1) That's circumstantial evidence, and while it's true Allen went to jail (9/27/74) eight months after a confirmed Z letter was sent (1/29/74), it's not true that there was a single confirmed Z letter after that one in early '74.
2) True, the Migeau identification is eyewitness evidence, but, given the odd and traumatic circumstances of his shooting 22 years prior, I don't find it remotely conclusive.
Again, read the article. IMO, Doerr was almost certainly Z. Did Allen bear a certain visual similarity to Z? Probably, but that's probably hardly unusual for middle-aged white dudes of that general weight class now, let alone then.
Last edited:
What part of the case for Doerr as Zodiac is not circumstantial?
So your claim that the case against Allen rests entirely on circumstantial evidence
( ridiculous on the part of someone who claimed to have watched the film ) was complete BS. In fact 2 surviving victims identified him. Which you casually dismiss because it's inconvenient.
"Did Allen have two arms and two legs? It's possible. But that in itself is not a crime."
Last edited:
None of it. But if you believe Doerr's daughter's story about his violent assault of her, which I do, it's pretty overwhelming circumstantial evidence, IMO, much more so than Allen's, even counting Mageau's ID.
I take all evidence into account, including Mageau's ID, which, again, though not circumstantial - I was wrong about that - I still consider weak. And, obviously, he wasn't given the opportunity to potentially ID Doerr. Neither did police dispatcher Nancy Slover, who said Allen's voice didn't match the one she heard. Nor did police ever question Doerr, let alone search his house multiple times, or take his fingerprints. Not sure what other surviving victim you're referring to.
The evidence against Allen is obviously in the top two suspects list alongside Doerr, but I ultimately think that Doerr wins, and by a significant margin. As Toschi himself said in 2010, “Allen looked very, very good for a while. (But) everything turned out to be negative.”
Allen was a not very bright weirdo and a creep, and if he had been Z, I think there's a pretty good chance he would have slipped up at some point, and/or broken down and confessed to police. I don't know of any evidence that suggests Allen's dull personality even comes close to matching Z's flamboyance and haughtiness. OTOH, Doerr's personality and prose, as documented in numerous zine letters, are a far better match, and then there's his daughter's incredibly incriminating assault story, not to mention what certainly sounds like a near-deathbed confession that his wife destroyed. It's not fair to Allen to ignore the mountain of circumstantial evidence against Doerr just because police never had a chance to investigate him. History isn't fair, of course; but those who study history should mind their own perspectives.
Apparently this thread is about the Zodiac Killer now.
Similar threads
