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"Course: Oblivion"

Actually, the people they encountered would have records, and if some day the Federation meets these people again, and sees Voyager was supposedly there when it really wasn't because it was the copy, their existence could be discovered.

In the book series, it's Voyager now back in the DQ - along with a Star Fleet task force?

It would be interesting if they used that idea as a story premise. Voyager starts encountering species that claim that they have encountered Voyager before...and they even have records and videos - but Voyager has no record of this.

Maybe they encounter an enemy that "Soyager" made, ho is out to get Voyager & co...

Maybe for a while some in Starfleet in suspect that Voyager covered up some encounters...faked logs...until they realize that it's just not possible, because they would have had to literally be in two places at once...
 
Bryce wrote
Maybe they encounter an enemy that "Soyager" made, ho is out to get Voyager & co...
The reason Janeway went ahead and accepted the Silver Blood and agreed Voyager and everyone should be copies instead of to destoy it with nadion pulses is, after due consideration of all the facts, she called the mimetic fluid good and it deserved life. She knew that the copies would be so original that Voyager wouldn't be in danger and, for these reasons, the new form of sentient life posed no threat and deserved to live.
According to the original cast, after 60 days or so, the copy deviated alittle and broke-down.
 
Here's why Voyager and the Silverblood Voyager never encountered the same races.

After "Demon", we have "One" (did the radiation of the nebula not affect them? Or did that scramble their memory of being Silverbloods?), then "Hope and Fear". Real Voyager jumped ahead a little ways with the slipstream technology (I think 3 months worth of travel time in their short flight).

And then in Season 5 they entered the Void in "Night", found a shortcut to the end. Season 5 is very fragmentary. The episodes' encounters we've seen were scattered over 30,000ly.
- "Night"- just the Void we see
- "Drone"- "Timeless"- part of the same segment of space.
- "Infinite Regress"- "Dark Frontier"- 10,000ly from the previous segment.
- "The Disease"- onward- 20,000ly from the previous segment.

Silverblood Voyager developed enhanced warp drive (would of have to have been in those 200-300 or so ly Voyager skipped over in "Hope and Fear". How ironic for Voyager) and we hear their journey back to Earth would take, what was it 2 or 3 years. Also remember they encountered Voyager a long way on their flight back.

With over 30,000ly of space, there's more than enough space for both Voyagers' encounters. I think the Silverbloods may have mentioned Hazari ale, the Hazari having been encountered by Voyager in "Think Tank", though being mercenaries spread out over who-knows-how-far, it isn't surprising they wouldn't necessarily share info.

Edit: This website has scans from Star Trek Star Charts. While the Voyager maps do have numerous small to medium-grade flaws, it does give a good picture overall of Voyager's journey and the worlds, phenomena, etc encountered along the way.
http://www.star-trek-voyager.net/stsc/voyager_route2375.htm
 
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The bio-mimetic crew and Soyager came from the Demon planet 10 months previously and after the new drive was brought online it would take 2.1 years to finish the remaining 55,000 lt.yrs to Earth. Of course, this would be at normal cruise speed.
Suppose the real Voyager went 25,000 lt.yrs. since their encounter with the Demon planet until the climax at 'Course Oblivion'. If the bio-mimetic crew activated the new drive 1 month into their journey, that implies it only took 9 months to go 35,000 lt. yrs.- estimating they are 10,000 lt. yrs. ahead of Voyager. This should include all the stops along the way. If they reversed course 10,000 lt.yrs. ahead of Voyager and activated drive at full warp capacity, judging from how the storyline went, they closed the gap in less than a week. It would still take two more weeks to reach the Demon planet. At that point in the story the ship had only a few hours to live. So, in this respect DeepSpaceWine is correct, but may I include a few juxtapositions.
___
Seven and Harry might of stabilized the ship enough so that it stayed together. All primary systems must have remained intact if, after the core was dumped, the ships' retros braked the ship into impulse speed. Thirdly, Seven said any Federation ship that dumps it's core at that speed will explode.
If the ship was stabilzed enough for the return trip it would have had to impact on the Demon planet at 650,000 times lt. speed.
 
^
Yes. That's something people may overlook, that Voyager encountered "Soyager" as it was heading *back*, meaning it was well ahead of Voyager.
 
In my opinion the second ship that Voyager encountered on the way home was also a duplicate. It could not have been the real Voyager because that ship should have been 15 light years away because of the jump they recieved in the previous Borg episode. In theory the planet would just continious creating copies of copies.
 
I have a question. Was the crew between Demon and Course: Oblivion the fake-crew (Soyager) and was Soyger only in Course: Oblivion? I mean, did we follow the fake crew almost whole 5th Season?

No, it was only this episode. The biggest giveaway was that the fake Tom Paris was a lieutenant, whereas the real one had previously demoted to Ensign in "Thirty Days".
There's a really good Voyager novel called Battle Lines which had a plot similar to one of Soyager's adventures whch Soykotay describes to Soyven in Soystrometrics. where an alien species tries to enlist Voyager as part of their war fleet.

Unfortunately, the name of the aliens and a few other minor details don't match.
 
What I found most depressing about "Course: Oblivion" was that the Soyager crew solved the slipstream problem and the Voyager crew didn't. Was that because the Soyagers met aliens who helped them? Was it because their silver ship was more forgiving than real matter was on Voyager? To me, that is what makes the ending so poignant--Voyager was that close to getting invaluable information that could get them home in two years (which, since this was Season 5, would be the end of the series).
 
^
They didn't solve the slipstream problem. They never got slipstream at all, unless you're suggesting the duplicate Voyager went thru the Mutara Nebula, found another angry member of Arturis' species at that space station and had a "Hope and Fear" rerun adventure. They had "enhanced warp drive". We don't know where they got it or how it works other than it looks like regular warp drive and produces a radiation that has no effect on humans but has an effect on the Silverbloods.
 
^
They didn't solve the slipstream problem. They never got slipstream at all, unless you're suggesting the duplicate Voyager went thru the Mutara Nebula, found another angry member of Arturis' species at that space station and had a "Hope and Fear" rerun adventure. They had "enhanced warp drive". We don't know where they got it or how it works other than it looks like regular warp drive and produces a radiation that has no effect on humans but has an effect on the Silverbloods.

Oops, sorry. Enhanced drive. But, whatever they did to develop this, the "real" ship could have benefited from it, too. But they never had a chance to find out about it.
 
They clearly didn't think it out but the implication is the mimic Voyager had to get enhanced warp drive from near the area of space "Demon" is in.

When they set out for Earth, they had to pass through the nebula ("One") and they had to have encountered the area Arturis was found in ("Hope and Fear"), the nameless unseen trading colony. From there, Voyager had to warp off to the side to the Dauntless and then there was the test flight and then the rescue mission. Mimic Voyager would have set out ahead, passing through those 300ly Voyager skipped over after using the slipstream after returning from the rescue mission that was going back to Borg space (to Species 116's homeworld it seemed). The Void starts at some point after that.

Logically, either they encountered another race at the trading colony who had the enhanced warp drive (EWD) technology/expertise or they picked that up in the 300ly since then. We see nothing unusual at the warp core, but among Neelix's unaffected supplies were: particle accelerators, trilithium ore... and a keg of Hazari ale. That might be a tip... trilithium. Trilithium + accelerated alcohol particles= enhanced warp drive. :lol: Or maybe the Silverblood mix combined with trilithium is the enhanced warp drive. Dunno how dichromates, deuterium, hydrogen sulfate would be superfuel though...


But so much doesn't make sense because from Chakotay & Tuvok's recap, we hear:
10 months 11 days ago- Voyager landed on Class Y planet in Vaskan Sector. ("Demon")
9 months 28 days ago- Voyager got silicate from a comet in the Podaris sector.
Then came the N'Kree conscription (9m 2d), Kmada sabatage with low level theta radiation (8m 17d).
(Note: Voyager never encountered the N'Kree or Kmada, or anything Podaris [Vaskan named after the race in the "Living Witness" episode], but we hear no mention of Borg combat from Mimic Voyager or Devore or the Void, so they probably sped over the areas Voyager went slow in)

The nebula was 110ly across. That would add so much time going around, Janeway decided to go through it in stasis to avoid subnucleonic radiation at a warp speed I forget, but it took exactly 1 month. I would presume the Silverbloods weren't affected by it, so cruised thru it. They would have to have gone through at higher speeds.



Other factoids for any math in case any people more mathematically adept want to number crunch to deduce where each event in this episode was and how far they were ahead of Voyager... or to make a handy map (Star Trek Star Charts is a handy starting point, but it has a myriad of small errors):

- The episode starts at 52586.3. They say at peak efficiency & no stopping, they will reach Earth in 2 years 11 days 6 hours. Of course, Janeway is curious about a few things. And they did say they can pass straight through the center of the galaxy instead of around (but with the same point of origin, well before the center, and the same destination on the Alpha-Beta border, how far off the same course would both Voyagers be?)

- Mimic Voyager's long range sensors can detect major phenomena 6 months ahead and 2-3 months round trip off to the side (anomalous gradient in the curvature of space and a binary system with unusual bioharmonic readings). Another system upgrade? Or is that anomalous curvature a gigantic feature Voyager skipped over in their 20,000ly leap in "Dark Frontier", so never got remotely close to detecting even from a distance?

- Tuvok said anything new from the previous 30-40 weeks shows no decay. That's when they look back into the logs beyond then (above). We can use that 10 months 11 days for any time/speed/distance calculations.

- When Chakotay tells Janeway to go back to the Demon Planet, she says that's "thousands of light years in the wrong direction".

- Neelix picked up Hazari ale along the way. The Hazari were the lizard mercenaries in "Think Tank". We don't know how wide a region of space they operate across.

- That Ord'mirit Class Y planet was the nearest Class Y planet detected on their sensors. It was reached by regular warp after they stopped using it to investigate the decay. After the battle, she activates the EWD and sets course for the Demon planet.

- After that, in an undated supplemental, we hear they are 5 weeks away from the Demon planet.
- An unknown time later, Kim says it's 52597.4. They detect Voyager 22ly away at this point. (We don't know *when* they got enhanced warp drive)

- Voyager said they picked up the distress call at 0900 and arrived at the ship at 2120, though it's a flaw if it's the original distress call from the Ord'Mirit Class Y planet because that was a long time ago and far away (unless the distress call was continuous, not just the one use).

- Before or after "Dark Frontier" and its huge leap?
"Dark Frontier" aired 2/17/99, "The Disease" 2/24/99, "Course: Oblivion" 3/3/99. Disease was produced before Dark Frontier, but C:O was produced after. So, it should be after that huge jump.


Any math nerds can produce something cool out of this and the various distance leaps over "Hope and Fear" through "Dark Frontier"?
 
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I could just be projecting, but I don't think that this episode is supposed to make "sense" as much as leave you with the gut-wrenching feeling that they almost made it to the other Voyager.

The really heart breaking thing about this episode is that the Silverbloods are "going home" to the wrong home, since they mimicked the crew of Voyager. By the time they figure it out and get on course to the correct home, it's pretty much too late for them.

I have a big soft spot for the Silverbloods. :]
 
This is Voyager, a lot of stuff doesn't make sense. Sometimes it does work to tell a great story. I think "Course: Oblivion" is one of the best Star Trek episodes out of all 700ish or so. "Ashes to Ashes" was a great story. It didn't quite work well with "Equinox". Part of the fun is in trying to make sense of it. Each episode does give enough facts to work within to find the most likely solution to explain everything.

With Equinox, it seems like they never had dolphin-powered warp, just biofuel for regular warp and they and their sensors are warped from psychological & physical damage. The Caretaker is a coincidence in naming (it's easier than it seems as its a generic label). They landed somewhere near late Season 5 space since they encountered no one remotely that Voyager did and would such a mighty power as the Krotonan Guard have *no* presence anywhere in Season 1-2? Would not Vidiians prey on them, or Kazon wanting Federation technology? Then there's the matter of the Borg and everyone else. The only way the Ankari could have caught up is if some dolphins went kamikaze and powered their ships to catch up, but Voyager thought they were only 50ly back, thought they were easy to contact. That makes it seem humorously, Equinox only came 50 or a little more ly since they got their dolphin fuel.

But I digress... I remember trying to determine how far ahead the mimic Voyager got and when Voyager passed their distance mark by after the episode. Most of the information is there, it's just a matter of a few variables needing clarity.
 
Also, it seems like "Course: Oblivion" is finally getting the respect it deserves. For some years, "Demon" haters wrote it off. Not sure if it was simply time, the Season 5 DVD release, Spike TV's Voyager run, or what, but it seemed like more people have come to look at it separately from "Demon" and not hate it for what they hate about that episode.

Have others noticed that kind of sentiment shift with the episode?
 
Also, it seems like "Course: Oblivion" is finally getting the respect it deserves. For some years, "Demon" haters wrote it off. Not sure if it was simply time, the Season 5 DVD release, Spike TV's Voyager run, or what, but it seemed like more people have come to look at it separately from "Demon" and not hate it for what they hate about that episode.

Have others noticed that kind of sentiment shift with the episode?

Honestly, I remember 'Course: Oblivion' but I can't recall a single detail about 'Demon.' -shrug-
 
I always assumed that the reason the crew forgot they were copies is that they were copies who had continuous memories (data in the case of the doctor.) When they were created, they "remembered" all that and conducted themselves accordingly. The silver blood people on the demon planet made more copies that could live in a normal atmosphere so they could fly in a copy of Voyager. (The silver blood people couldn't survive in Voyager's atmosphere.)

The reason they wanted to make a new crew to? I speculated they wanted to send the modified copies in a Voyager to find out what or who put all the deuterium for light years around onto their planet. After all, space normally contains some hydrogen (and therefore deuterium.) That's why it was so unexpected for Voyager to run out of deuterium.

I've forgotten what was supposed to be so awful about Demon. I think it and Course: Oblivion are a good pair of episodes, the kind you wouldn't find on any other Trek series.
 
Also, it seems like "Course: Oblivion" is finally getting the respect it deserves. For some years, "Demon" haters wrote it off. Not sure if it was simply time, the Season 5 DVD release, Spike TV's Voyager run, or what, but it seemed like more people have come to look at it separately from "Demon" and not hate it for what they hate about that episode.

Have others noticed that kind of sentiment shift with the episode?

Honestly, I remember 'Course: Oblivion' but I can't recall a single detail about 'Demon.' -shrug-

I just watched that episode last night and it has been so long since I had seen it that I had forgotten that the two episodes were related.
 
They clearly didn't think it out but the implication is the mimic Voyager had to get enhanced warp drive from near the area of space "Demon" is in.

When they set out for Earth, they had to pass through the nebula ("One") and they had to have encountered the area Arturis was found in ("Hope and Fear"), the nameless unseen trading colony. From there, Voyager had to warp off to the side to the Dauntless and then there was the test flight and then the rescue mission. Mimic Voyager would have set out ahead, passing through those 300ly Voyager skipped over after using the slipstream after returning from the rescue mission that was going back to Borg space (to Species 116's homeworld it seemed). The Void starts at some point after that.

Logically, either they encountered another race at the trading colony who had the enhanced warp drive (EWD) technology/expertise or they picked that up in the 300ly since then. We see nothing unusual at the warp core, but among Neelix's unaffected supplies were: particle accelerators, trilithium ore... and a keg of Hazari ale. That might be a tip... trilithium. Trilithium + accelerated alcohol particles= enhanced warp drive. :lol: Or maybe the Silverblood mix combined with trilithium is the enhanced warp drive. Dunno how dichromates, deuterium, hydrogen sulfate would be superfuel though...


But so much doesn't make sense because from Chakotay & Tuvok's recap, we hear:
10 months 11 days ago- Voyager landed on Class Y planet in Vaskan Sector. ("Demon")
9 months 28 days ago- Voyager got silicate from a comet in the Podaris sector.
Then came the N'Kree conscription (9m 2d), Kmada sabatage with low level theta radiation (8m 17d).
(Note: Voyager never encountered the N'Kree or Kmada, or anything Podaris [Vaskan named after the race in the "Living Witness" episode], but we hear no mention of Borg combat from Mimic Voyager or Devore or the Void, so they probably sped over the areas Voyager went slow in)

The nebula was 110ly across. That would add so much time going around, Janeway decided to go through it in stasis to avoid subnucleonic radiation at a warp speed I forget, but it took exactly 1 month. I would presume the Silverbloods weren't affected by it, so cruised thru it. They would have to have gone through at higher speeds.



Other factoids for any math in case any people more mathematically adept want to number crunch to deduce where each event in this episode was and how far they were ahead of Voyager... or to make a handy map (Star Trek Star Charts is a handy starting point, but it has a myriad of small errors):

- The episode starts at 52586.3. They say at peak efficiency & no stopping, they will reach Earth in 2 years 11 days 6 hours. Of course, Janeway is curious about a few things. And they did say they can pass straight through the center of the galaxy instead of around (but with the same point of origin, well before the center, and the same destination on the Alpha-Beta border, how far off the same course would both Voyagers be?)

- Mimic Voyager's long range sensors can detect major phenomena 6 months ahead and 2-3 months round trip off to the side (anomalous gradient in the curvature of space and a binary system with unusual bioharmonic readings). Another system upgrade? Or is that anomalous curvature a gigantic feature Voyager skipped over in their 20,000ly leap in "Dark Frontier", so never got remotely close to detecting even from a distance?

- Tuvok said anything new from the previous 30-40 weeks shows no decay. That's when they look back into the logs beyond then (above). We can use that 10 months 11 days for any time/speed/distance calculations.

- When Chakotay tells Janeway to go back to the Demon Planet, she says that's "thousands of light years in the wrong direction".

- Neelix picked up Hazari ale along the way. The Hazari were the lizard mercenaries in "Think Tank". We don't know how wide a region of space they operate across.

- That Ord'mirit Class Y planet was the nearest Class Y planet detected on their sensors. It was reached by regular warp after they stopped using it to investigate the decay. After the battle, she activates the EWD and sets course for the Demon planet.

- After that, in an undated supplemental, we hear they are 5 weeks away from the Demon planet.
- An unknown time later, Kim says it's 52597.4. They detect Voyager 22ly away at this point. (We don't know *when* they got enhanced warp drive)

- Voyager said they picked up the distress call at 0900 and arrived at the ship at 2120, though it's a flaw if it's the original distress call from the Ord'Mirit Class Y planet because that was a long time ago and far away (unless the distress call was continuous, not just the one use).

- Before or after "Dark Frontier" and its huge leap?
"Dark Frontier" aired 2/17/99, "The Disease" 2/24/99, "Course: Oblivion" 3/3/99. Disease was produced before Dark Frontier, but C:O was produced after. So, it should be after that huge jump.


Any math nerds can produce something cool out of this and the various distance leaps over "Hope and Fear" through "Dark Frontier"?


The writers don't even think about this stuff so why bother?
 
^
Why bother? It can be fun/interesting. Some people love football, some find it absolutely boring. Such an answer would be like saying about discussing a NFL game/season, etc, or more specifically a NHL game/season since it's the sports equivalent of Voyager (TNG is football, DS9 is basketball, VOY is hockey, Enterprise is MLS or arena football or something), why bother talking about it. The writers didn't think about how everything charted out on a map, but people were interested enough in it that a map book was made (Star Trek Star Charts). Various poets didn't analyze their own works, so why should anyone pick them apart? The Road Not Taken is just one memory turned into a poem; it has no more meaning so why should others ponder its meaning?


The silver blood people on the demon planet made more copies that could live in a normal atmosphere so they could fly in a copy of Voyager. (The silver blood people couldn't survive in Voyager's atmosphere.)
I figured it was adaptation, that they were incomplete copies in "Demon", that they could not completely imitate their subject, but in time, they managed to totally imitate their subject, down to breathing air and in the imitated memories dominating their liquid ones.

I never got the hatred of "Demon" either. Maybe some residual hatred from Outer Limits' "Cold Hands, Warm Heart", which it was inspired by. It made use of the EV suits, the set was nice, the concept interesting (landing on an inhospitable world).
 
One thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet: Janeway's "melting" makeup was done in such a way that it looked like she'd had a stroke. It was pretty powerful and disturbing imagery.
 
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