Counterpoint

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Trekboy1993, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. Trekboy1993

    Trekboy1993 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I noticed Janeway doesn't mention Stadi, the Vulcan nurse, or any of the other Betazoids and Vulcans serving aboard Voyager. And are Vulcans actually telepathic like Betazoids or was that just a Voyager thing. We saw Tuvok communicate telepathically in Random Thoughts.
     
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  2. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Vulcans are what's known as "touch telepaths." Their telepathic abilities rely on physical contact, in this case, they need to touch the person they mind meld with. Although there are exceptions, Spock could at times establish telepathic links without physical contact.
     
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  3. Refuge

    Refuge Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Also Suder was a Betazoid but he wasn't telepathic??
     
  4. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah if half-Vulcan Spock could do it I'm sure many others could too. The "touch telepaths" thing is about as legit as "Vulcans cannot lie"
     
  5. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not to mention the Sarek/Burnham stuff.
     
  6. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Correct.
     
  7. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Well, that was initiated through a physical mind meld, and it seems kind of a variation on whatever that link was between Trip and T'Pol in Enterprise's final season.
     
  8. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Which is in turn based on old Trek novels chock full of shippy K/S vibes...
     
  9. WarpTenLizard

    WarpTenLizard Commander Red Shirt

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    First, on Vulcan telepathy: Spock sensed the deaths of a hundred (or was it a thousand?) Vulcans light-years away when the Intrepid blew up. Tuvok at one point says he senses B'Elanna's anger and is impressed she can control it as much as she does. So Vulcan are telepathic even without touch, at least in some cases. (Maybe they just sense very strong emotions from afar?)

    Anyway, "Counterpoint" is a great episode, but that one detail grates on me; the idea of Tuvok and Vorik being the only Vulcans onboard. A few seasons later we see a Vulcan female among the former Maquis on Voyager, and in "Endgame" Janeway asks Tuvok if he could do his mind-meld cure with "some of the other Vulcans onboard," indicating that there are even more than just Vorik and that female. (Otherwise she'd have just said "What about Vorik and ___ ?") All I really got is, maybe the other Vulcans are less telepathic then Vorik and Tuvok, and thus didn't need to be in transport stasis to hide their telepathy from the bad guys. (Maybe doing a mind-meld increases one's telepathic powers; we do know that both Vorik and Tuvok have done mind-melds before--Vorik in "Blood Fever.")
     
  10. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    Remember Janeway was seeking to play an elaborate game with the Devore and Kashyk in particular. I doubt she wanted to reveal she had more telepaths in her crew than was ever necessary to minimize suspicion.

    Anyway I loved Counterpoint.
     
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  11. Refuge

    Refuge Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Counterpoint was good. Would be interesting if Species 8472 went through Devore space...
     
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  12. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    The Devore would get massacred given the technological and biological advantage Species 8472 had. Though they'd probably do well against most conventional enemies.
     
  13. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It was never stated that Suder didn't have telepathic abilities, given his deranged nature I'd suspect that he was (possibly even like Tam Elbrum and telepathic from birth which was the reason why he was unbalanced, however since there's nothing in canon to say that it's a personal theory).

    Vulcans are one of the many telepathically gifted species in Trek, including Betazoids, Cairn, Deltans, Haliians, Napeans, Ocampa, and Ullians (to name a few).
     
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  14. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    Actually it was stated he lacked the natural Betazoid telepathy hence a probable cause of his violent nature.
     
  15. Refuge

    Refuge Rear Admiral Commodore

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    There was reference to this "Most Betazoids can sense other people's emotions. I can't even sense my own." He didn't mention telepathy when talking about killing, just he didn't like how people looked at him. He was the 'inexperienced' one when Tuvok mind melded with him, though I suspect any latent telepathy or empathy Suder had screwed with Tuvok's head more than his!

    (Still I'm not sure if he or all Betazoids share the same ability for telepathy).
     
  16. at Quark's

    at Quark's Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Why did the Devore have a problem with telepaths, anyway? Were they afraid these people could read information the government wanted restricted ?
     
  17. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Suder does have a line saying that most Betazoids can sense the emotions of others but he can't sense his own, which I always took as more of a sign of his psychopathic nature, rather than is lack of telepathic/empathic abilities (most people would say they sense their own emotions after all). Given how badly Tuvok is affected by the meld with Suder then I'd suspect that he is actually quite a strong telepath to have such a profound impact on a highly disciplined Vulcan.

    It does also raise the question of why have a character from a telepathic species and not include said ability? Why not just make him a deranged human?
     
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  18. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    I imagine most humans who joined the Maquis had a Federation background any mental instability would have been dealt with sooner.

    Suder was stated to go crazy in combat which doesn't seem like a natural Betazoid thing. So perhaps it was that he was very much an outlier among his own species-hence his joining of the Maquis.
     
  19. Valenti

    Valenti Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    It would be interesting if Spock was everybody aboard the Enterprise or if he was controlling them all mentally telepathically. Just a thought.