"Countdown" canon? / "Countdown" Shotdown.
- Thread starter Jeyl
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Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
Federation ~= UN
Borg-enhanced Narada + Picard + B4 + Geordi = Fanwank
Federation ~= UN
Borg-enhanced Narada + Picard + B4 + Geordi = Fanwank
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
The reason the Kelvin survived so long was because of the superlative Captain Robau! It is canon to have starfleet officers who can act with distinction against terrifying odds.
And actually all off-screen stuff is not canon, not just comics. (google Paula Block cbs)
The reason the Kelvin survived so long was because of the superlative Captain Robau! It is canon to have starfleet officers who can act with distinction against terrifying odds.
And actually all off-screen stuff is not canon, not just comics. (google Paula Block cbs)
S
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Guest
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
It's a comic book, who cares?
It's a comic book, who cares?
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
This is exactly Orci's position. The prison time in Rura Penthe was filmed, but cut from the final release. Hence, not canonical. Countdown is a comic, not on-screen, hence not canonical. There is no conspiracy or mystery here.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
Considering it was marketed as "The Official Prequel to STAR TREK - In Theatres May 8th 2009" I took it as Canon.
Them saying it isnt doesnt ruin it for me, but it does irk me a bit that they just said that to weasel themselves out of a question.
Hell, you could have easily said "Easy, The Narada was weakened in its passage through the wormhole, and he wanted to keep some of the crew alive for questioning as to where/when they were."
Personally, I'll take it as that.
Considering it was marketed as "The Official Prequel to STAR TREK - In Theatres May 8th 2009" I took it as Canon.
Them saying it isnt doesnt ruin it for me, but it does irk me a bit that they just said that to weasel themselves out of a question.
Hell, you could have easily said "Easy, The Narada was weakened in its passage through the wormhole, and he wanted to keep some of the crew alive for questioning as to where/when they were."
Personally, I'll take it as that.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
For me, the only way to save this film from being hopelessly stupid is to argue for the inclusion of the deleted Rura Penthe scenes. Otherwise, we are expected to believe that Nero sulked for 25 years.
For me, the only way to save this film from being hopelessly stupid is to argue for the inclusion of the deleted Rura Penthe scenes. Otherwise, we are expected to believe that Nero sulked for 25 years.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
Canon = live action, on screen Trek.
Not canon = everything else.
It bewilders me how many people seem to have trouble differentiating between the two.
Saying "The comic book isn't canon" is like saying "The script was written in English." Sure they hadn't said so in so many words before, but even Cupcake knew it already. And to claim that they're denigrating other languages by saying that would be silly.
Canon = live action, on screen Trek.
Not canon = everything else.
It bewilders me how many people seem to have trouble differentiating between the two.
Saying "The comic book isn't canon" is like saying "The script was written in English." Sure they hadn't said so in so many words before, but even Cupcake knew it already. And to claim that they're denigrating other languages by saying that would be silly.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
You don't know what the plot hole in Hamlet is? Have you ever read the damn thing?
How does Hamlet get back from England, obviously! I mean, he gives this quick and breezey little explanation that makes next to no sense. "Pirates!" he says. He got away because of pirates? Whaaaaaaaaaat?
Huge frickin' plot hole. As big as whether or not Lady Macbeth had children.
You don't know what the plot hole in Hamlet is? Have you ever read the damn thing?
How does Hamlet get back from England, obviously! I mean, he gives this quick and breezey little explanation that makes next to no sense. "Pirates!" he says. He got away because of pirates? Whaaaaaaaaaat?
Huge frickin' plot hole. As big as whether or not Lady Macbeth had children.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
I have not read Countdown, but from what I've heard, I'm glad it's not canon.
I actually prefer the Narada be a regular, 24th century mining vessel. I like that a lightly armed 24th century ship still outclasses the comparatively ancient technology of 23rd century ships. Perhaps those missiles had some technology (say, for penetrating asteroids) that allowed them to go right through the Kelvins relatively primitive shields. As for why they had so many, replicators.
The shear size -- storage for ore, perhaps processing equipment.
re: The missing 25 years: when I saw the movie, before reading any of the kvetching online, I thought they had been trying to figure out Spock-prime's arrival point/time (wasn't there something like "what do we do now?" "same thing we've been doing for 25 years"?). There's no reason to believe they sat doing nothing.
A lot of the supposed problems with the film seem to boil down to people expecting everything to be explained on-screen (and if it isn't, then clearly the most absurd explanation you can come up with must be true). That's not how movies work. As long as what is stated is self-consistent, there's no problem.
I have not read Countdown, but from what I've heard, I'm glad it's not canon.
I actually prefer the Narada be a regular, 24th century mining vessel. I like that a lightly armed 24th century ship still outclasses the comparatively ancient technology of 23rd century ships. Perhaps those missiles had some technology (say, for penetrating asteroids) that allowed them to go right through the Kelvins relatively primitive shields. As for why they had so many, replicators.
The shear size -- storage for ore, perhaps processing equipment.
re: The missing 25 years: when I saw the movie, before reading any of the kvetching online, I thought they had been trying to figure out Spock-prime's arrival point/time (wasn't there something like "what do we do now?" "same thing we've been doing for 25 years"?). There's no reason to believe they sat doing nothing.
A lot of the supposed problems with the film seem to boil down to people expecting everything to be explained on-screen (and if it isn't, then clearly the most absurd explanation you can come up with must be true). That's not how movies work. As long as what is stated is self-consistent, there's no problem.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
That's the crux of the matter. Nero specifically wanted Spock to see the destruction of Vulcan. No every Federation planet. Nero could have wiped out the entire Federation, save Vulcan. Then made Spock watch. It makes no sense that he'd sit out in space waiting for 25 years before doing anything.
No, not everything needs to be explained on screen. But the huge chunks of time should at least be given some explanation.
That's the crux of the matter. Nero specifically wanted Spock to see the destruction of Vulcan. No every Federation planet. Nero could have wiped out the entire Federation, save Vulcan. Then made Spock watch. It makes no sense that he'd sit out in space waiting for 25 years before doing anything.
No, not everything needs to be explained on screen. But the huge chunks of time should at least be given some explanation.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
It actually makes PERFECT sense. Spock has the red matter, without which Nero can do nothing of the kind you describe.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
What's with the attitude when it is clear that you don't know what you are talking about here. Have you read the play? Hamlet goes into more of an explanation that the version of the story you present.
Act 4, Scene 6, Horatio reads a letter sent from Hamlet explaining that his ship attacked and he was captured by pirates. Hamlet later explains that he convinced the pirates to return him to Denmark on the assumption that Hamlet will reward them.
How is this a plot hole? Truth is, it isn't. Is it strange? Yes. A deus ex machina, for sure. But a plot hole, no.
If Hamlet just returned with no explanation given, then, yes, a plot hole will be arisen.
What's with the attitude when it is clear that you don't know what you are talking about here. Have you read the play? Hamlet goes into more of an explanation that the version of the story you present.
Act 4, Scene 6, Horatio reads a letter sent from Hamlet explaining that his ship attacked and he was captured by pirates. Hamlet later explains that he convinced the pirates to return him to Denmark on the assumption that Hamlet will reward them.
How is this a plot hole? Truth is, it isn't. Is it strange? Yes. A deus ex machina, for sure. But a plot hole, no.
If Hamlet just returned with no explanation given, then, yes, a plot hole will be arisen.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
Indeed the Narada though powerful was not a planet killer until it gets the red matter.
Plus had Nero started a rampage (beyond the Kelvin matter) he would have ended up a hunted man and likely had entire empires out to destroy his strong (but not un-destroyable ship) best to bide his time and plan out his revenge and then get the red matter.
Spock Prime's absence is indeed a stop gap that keeps Nero reined in until he arrives which shows why Nimoy was thought to be "critical" for this movie.
Sharr
Indeed the Narada though powerful was not a planet killer until it gets the red matter.
Plus had Nero started a rampage (beyond the Kelvin matter) he would have ended up a hunted man and likely had entire empires out to destroy his strong (but not un-destroyable ship) best to bide his time and plan out his revenge and then get the red matter.
Spock Prime's absence is indeed a stop gap that keeps Nero reined in until he arrives which shows why Nimoy was thought to be "critical" for this movie.
Sharr
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
Of course it's a bloody plot hole. The pirates just do what Hamlet asks them and brings him back home? Whaaat? C'mon. Pirates wouldn't do that -- they'd take the Prince of Denmark hostage and demand huge sums of money for his safe return.
It would have been better for him to return with no explanation. Either way, plot hole.
But either way, we digress. My point is served:
How Hamlet returned doesn't matter to the story. At one point in the story, Hamlet needs to be gone, and in another, he needs to be back in Denmark. The hows of it don't matter. What matters are the characters and the themes. The plot exists to serve those two, not the other way around. That's why nonsensical plot developments in any story can be excused if they serve well some good characterization and themes.
So it is with Hamlet, and so it is with the so-called "plot holes" of Star Trek.
Of course it's a bloody plot hole. The pirates just do what Hamlet asks them and brings him back home? Whaaat? C'mon. Pirates wouldn't do that -- they'd take the Prince of Denmark hostage and demand huge sums of money for his safe return.
It would have been better for him to return with no explanation. Either way, plot hole.
But either way, we digress. My point is served:
How Hamlet returned doesn't matter to the story. At one point in the story, Hamlet needs to be gone, and in another, he needs to be back in Denmark. The hows of it don't matter. What matters are the characters and the themes. The plot exists to serve those two, not the other way around. That's why nonsensical plot developments in any story can be excused if they serve well some good characterization and themes.
So it is with Hamlet, and so it is with the so-called "plot holes" of Star Trek.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.(spoilers for the comic in my post)
As I've noted already, the comparison of the Federation to the European Union doesn't really work. The United Federation of Planets is just that -- a federation, a sovereign state comprised of sub-polities with whom the state shares power. The European Union, on the other hand, is an especially strong alliance of sovereign states that has been delegated some of the functions of a sovereign state -- but which is not itself a sovereign state, as evidenced by the lack of a unified foreign policy (e.g., the United Kingdom and Kingdom of Spain participating in the Iraq War while the French Republic and Federal Republic of Germany oppose the war) and lack of international recognition of the EU as a sovereign state.
The Federation, on the other hand, possesses all of the traits of a sovereign state. It has the right to make binding law throughout its territory (TNG: "Force of Nature"). It raises and maintains its own military in the Federation Starfleet. It can unilaterally declare martial law over the territory of one of its member states (DS9: "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost"). It can conduct foreign policy without getting its member states' permissions (Star Trek VI). It exchanges ambassadors with other sovereign states. It declares war and wages peace. Etc.
As I've noted already, the comparison of the Federation to the European Union doesn't really work. The United Federation of Planets is just that -- a federation, a sovereign state comprised of sub-polities with whom the state shares power. The European Union, on the other hand, is an especially strong alliance of sovereign states that has been delegated some of the functions of a sovereign state -- but which is not itself a sovereign state, as evidenced by the lack of a unified foreign policy (e.g., the United Kingdom and Kingdom of Spain participating in the Iraq War while the French Republic and Federal Republic of Germany oppose the war) and lack of international recognition of the EU as a sovereign state.
The Federation, on the other hand, possesses all of the traits of a sovereign state. It has the right to make binding law throughout its territory (TNG: "Force of Nature"). It raises and maintains its own military in the Federation Starfleet. It can unilaterally declare martial law over the territory of one of its member states (DS9: "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost"). It can conduct foreign policy without getting its member states' permissions (Star Trek VI). It exchanges ambassadors with other sovereign states. It declares war and wages peace. Etc.
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