Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
"Countdown" canon? / "Countdown" Shotdown.
- Thread starter Jeyl
- Start date
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
In all seriousness, I agree. I think that's the way the books should stay: keep what you want, discard what you don't. That's what I'm doing. So no Borg for me.
In all seriousness, I agree. I think that's the way the books should stay: keep what you want, discard what you don't. That's what I'm doing. So no Borg for me.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
There are parts of Countdown I would use, other parts I would discard. For instance, the Narada definitely has a Borgified feel to it, but I'd like to think that it's still at its heart a mining vessel, and couldn't stand up to 24th century ships for very long.
My biggest disappointment with it was that it didn't put any more meat on the bones regarding the superdupernova. It would probably take any of us about five minutes to come up with some Trek science explanation for why this was no ordinary supernova, but the Countdown writers just wrote some crappy stuff there. So on the whole, I'd say leave it out.
There are parts of Countdown I would use, other parts I would discard. For instance, the Narada definitely has a Borgified feel to it, but I'd like to think that it's still at its heart a mining vessel, and couldn't stand up to 24th century ships for very long.
My biggest disappointment with it was that it didn't put any more meat on the bones regarding the superdupernova. It would probably take any of us about five minutes to come up with some Trek science explanation for why this was no ordinary supernova, but the Countdown writers just wrote some crappy stuff there. So on the whole, I'd say leave it out.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
Nero could have destroyed the Kelvin easily but wanted captain Bad-ass (that's Robau to the rest of you
) to come over to the Narada and answer questions about Spock.
I think the Rom/Borg hybrid tech was a cool explanation myself.
J
Nero could have destroyed the Kelvin easily but wanted captain Bad-ass (that's Robau to the rest of you
) to come over to the Narada and answer questions about Spock.I think the Rom/Borg hybrid tech was a cool explanation myself.
J
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
I had no idea that a story had to be canonical to be good or to be worth your time.
I had no idea that a story had to be canonical to be good or to be worth your time.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.(spoilers for the comic in my post)
I don't put much stock in these comics that proclaim themselves to be "official prequels" to any movie. True, they may tell a story that leads into the movie quite nicely, but it's very unlikely that they'll be considered a legitimate lead-in to the movie. At the most, they'll be regarded as an intriguing "What if?" in regards to how the movie's story came to be.
Countdown was a fairly decent story; I REALLY liked seeing the tragic turn to darkness for Nero, the meaning of his tattoos, the origin of the Debrune Teral'n (Nero's bladed weapon) and the creation of the Jellyfish, but I could've done without the TNG elements. To me they seemed to be little more than...pardon the expression..."fan-wank". "Oh, wow! They put Data in the story! Oh, man! There's Picard, and he's ambassador to Vulcan now!" (which made no sense to me, by the way. Why an ambassadorship to Vulcan? Wouldn't he be far more valuable as a Starfleet admiral?) And, as if Picard and Data weren't enough, they worked in Geordi La Forge and Worf, too! Come on, guys. Less is more. And, come on; modified Borg technology? ENOUGH with the Borg, already!
I have no intention of getting myself in a whinge because the comic is not considered canon. It didn't lessen my enjoyment of it or of the movie, so there's no reason for me to take umbrage with the statements made by Bob Orci about it.
I don't put much stock in these comics that proclaim themselves to be "official prequels" to any movie. True, they may tell a story that leads into the movie quite nicely, but it's very unlikely that they'll be considered a legitimate lead-in to the movie. At the most, they'll be regarded as an intriguing "What if?" in regards to how the movie's story came to be.
Countdown was a fairly decent story; I REALLY liked seeing the tragic turn to darkness for Nero, the meaning of his tattoos, the origin of the Debrune Teral'n (Nero's bladed weapon) and the creation of the Jellyfish, but I could've done without the TNG elements. To me they seemed to be little more than...pardon the expression..."fan-wank". "Oh, wow! They put Data in the story! Oh, man! There's Picard, and he's ambassador to Vulcan now!" (which made no sense to me, by the way. Why an ambassadorship to Vulcan? Wouldn't he be far more valuable as a Starfleet admiral?) And, as if Picard and Data weren't enough, they worked in Geordi La Forge and Worf, too! Come on, guys. Less is more. And, come on; modified Borg technology? ENOUGH with the Borg, already!
I have no intention of getting myself in a whinge because the comic is not considered canon. It didn't lessen my enjoyment of it or of the movie, so there's no reason for me to take umbrage with the statements made by Bob Orci about it.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.(spoilers for the comic in my post)
Also, why would the Federation need an ambassador to one of their own founding member worlds? That's like the United States having an ambassador to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, or the United Kingdom having an ambassador to Scotland, or Canada having an ambassador to Quebec, or the Federal Republic of Germany having an ambassador to Bavaria, or the Commonwealth of Australia having an ambassador to New South Wales, or...
Also, why would the Federation need an ambassador to one of their own founding member worlds? That's like the United States having an ambassador to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, or the United Kingdom having an ambassador to Scotland, or Canada having an ambassador to Quebec, or the Federal Republic of Germany having an ambassador to Bavaria, or the Commonwealth of Australia having an ambassador to New South Wales, or...
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
Simple - the Narada stopped firin' at the Kelvin.
They disabled the ship, breached the hull in multiple locations, knocked out most of the automated systems and shields, and then opened hailin' frequencies to get some questions answered.
Had the Narada been lookin' to destroy the Kelvin outright, no doubt they could have done so. The (offscreen) destruction of the Klingon armada and the (also offscreen) destruction of the Starfleet ships at Vulcan shows that if Nero wanted to outright destroy a ship, he could.
And, as Spock pointed out, his presence aboard the Enterprise was the only thing that saved that ship from destruction before the Narada set a course for Earth.
Simple - the Narada stopped firin' at the Kelvin.
They disabled the ship, breached the hull in multiple locations, knocked out most of the automated systems and shields, and then opened hailin' frequencies to get some questions answered.
Had the Narada been lookin' to destroy the Kelvin outright, no doubt they could have done so. The (offscreen) destruction of the Klingon armada and the (also offscreen) destruction of the Starfleet ships at Vulcan shows that if Nero wanted to outright destroy a ship, he could.
And, as Spock pointed out, his presence aboard the Enterprise was the only thing that saved that ship from destruction before the Narada set a course for Earth.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.(spoilers for the comic in my post)
Yeah, that made very little sense to me too. I could understand some of the TNG character appearances, but Picard really felt shoehorned in.
I also agree with Peter the Younger's issue about the Hobus Star. Clearly this was something more than your garden-variety supernova, but the comic barely touches on it. Really, how could a supernova affect planets in other systems in a matter of weeks? They've got some 'splaining to do there.
Yeah, that made very little sense to me too. I could understand some of the TNG character appearances, but Picard really felt shoehorned in.
I also agree with Peter the Younger's issue about the Hobus Star. Clearly this was something more than your garden-variety supernova, but the comic barely touches on it. Really, how could a supernova affect planets in other systems in a matter of weeks? They've got some 'splaining to do there.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.(spoilers for the comic in my post)
In the Prime timeline, it was never established who he was the Vulcan ambassador to (nor, indeed, if he was an ambassador of Vulcan to someone else, a Federation ambassador who was Vulcan). In "Journey to Babel," the delegates from the Federation member worlds are voting on whether or not to admit Coridan, and are apparently getting their instructions from their homeworlds' governments -- which is indeed odd; if the US were deciding whether or not to admit a new state, for instance, the Senators and Congressmen from Ohio wouldn't need to contact the Ohio state government to receive instructions. But "Journey to Babel" also makes it clear that the Federation is on the verge of civil war over the whole thing, and that it's an unusual situation that we probably shouldn't infer normal rules of operation from.
Sarek is referred to as the Vulcan Ambassador to Earth in the alternate timeline of the new film (apparently following in the shoes of Soval) -- yet even that makes little sense in our modern understanding of federations. Massachusetts doesn't have an ambassador to Virginia, after all. One might infer that the Kelvin incident prompted Vulcan to secede from the Federation -- or one might infer that "ambassador" is also used to refer to agents of intra-Federation representation across the distance of space who do not have the full diplomatic rank we associate with the ambassadors of sovereign states today.
In the Prime timeline, it was never established who he was the Vulcan ambassador to (nor, indeed, if he was an ambassador of Vulcan to someone else, a Federation ambassador who was Vulcan). In "Journey to Babel," the delegates from the Federation member worlds are voting on whether or not to admit Coridan, and are apparently getting their instructions from their homeworlds' governments -- which is indeed odd; if the US were deciding whether or not to admit a new state, for instance, the Senators and Congressmen from Ohio wouldn't need to contact the Ohio state government to receive instructions. But "Journey to Babel" also makes it clear that the Federation is on the verge of civil war over the whole thing, and that it's an unusual situation that we probably shouldn't infer normal rules of operation from.
Sarek is referred to as the Vulcan Ambassador to Earth in the alternate timeline of the new film (apparently following in the shoes of Soval) -- yet even that makes little sense in our modern understanding of federations. Massachusetts doesn't have an ambassador to Virginia, after all. One might infer that the Kelvin incident prompted Vulcan to secede from the Federation -- or one might infer that "ambassador" is also used to refer to agents of intra-Federation representation across the distance of space who do not have the full diplomatic rank we associate with the ambassadors of sovereign states today.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
Well thats interesting that they'd say "Countdown" isn't canon. The back cover lists the book as the official movie prequel, and it fills in SOME (not all) of the questions/plotholes that the new movie introduces.
I thought it was a cool comic. Not the greatest, but still pretty cool. But oh well. I guess its all up to "fan speculation" now....
Well thats interesting that they'd say "Countdown" isn't canon. The back cover lists the book as the official movie prequel, and it fills in SOME (not all) of the questions/plotholes that the new movie introduces.
I thought it was a cool comic. Not the greatest, but still pretty cool. But oh well. I guess its all up to "fan speculation" now....
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.(spoilers for the comic in my post)
The problem is that the Federation clearly has the traits associated with legal statehood, which the EU does not. The Federation has the right to unilaterally make foreign policy for its member states, for instance -- negotiating the Khitomer Accords with the Klingon Empire, declaring war on the Dominion, exchanging ambassadors, making binding law upon its member states, declaring martial law over its member states without consulting their governments, raising and maintaining its own military, etc.
The European Union, on the other hand, is still more of an alliance than a state (though it may become a state in due time). The closest thing to the EU in Trekdom would be the Coalition of Planets.
The problem is that the Federation clearly has the traits associated with legal statehood, which the EU does not. The Federation has the right to unilaterally make foreign policy for its member states, for instance -- negotiating the Khitomer Accords with the Klingon Empire, declaring war on the Dominion, exchanging ambassadors, making binding law upon its member states, declaring martial law over its member states without consulting their governments, raising and maintaining its own military, etc.
The European Union, on the other hand, is still more of an alliance than a state (though it may become a state in due time). The closest thing to the EU in Trekdom would be the Coalition of Planets.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
I thought it was a bit extraneous for the purposes of the film. Keep it in the same category as all the rest of the comics and novels, secondary incidents to the live action adventures.
I thought it was a bit extraneous for the purposes of the film. Keep it in the same category as all the rest of the comics and novels, secondary incidents to the live action adventures.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
Lame.
But at least that beats down all those "no, ST11 is well written, you just have to read Countdown to plug the monumental plot holes and backstory" arguments.
We're one step closer to accepting that ST11 was poorly written.
Lame.
But at least that beats down all those "no, ST11 is well written, you just have to read Countdown to plug the monumental plot holes and backstory" arguments.
We're one step closer to accepting that ST11 was poorly written.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.
Plot hole != poorly-written.
Hamlet has a monumental plot hole that's five times the size of anything in ST11. I'm not saying that ST11 is as good as Hamlet -- but I am saying that what makes for a well-written story is not dependent upon the absence or presence of a plot hole. Those things, while always problems, are largely secondary to other criteria for good writing.
Plot hole != poorly-written.
Hamlet has a monumental plot hole that's five times the size of anything in ST11. I'm not saying that ST11 is as good as Hamlet -- but I am saying that what makes for a well-written story is not dependent upon the absence or presence of a plot hole. Those things, while always problems, are largely secondary to other criteria for good writing.
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.(spoilers for the comic in my post)
... and the Borg enhancements to the Narada.
It's a shame that nothing of this information made it into the movie. Did the movie even make sense to those who hadn't read Countdown before?
... and the Borg enhancements to the Narada.
It's a shame that nothing of this information made it into the movie. Did the movie even make sense to those who hadn't read Countdown before?
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