Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

[borgboy]

I remember Kes being pretty close to her father, but that's all the family she had, and I think he was dead when she left, wasn't he? All Kes would have to go home to would be maybe some old friends or classmates, whatever, and most of them would be dead. She'd pretty much be going home to a bunch of strangers, even if it was the familiar world.
As for people wishing they could go home, I guess it depends on what they have to go home to. Some homes need to be left. I'm not saying my own life is like that, but I wouldn't generalize that everyone wants to go home. I never felt like Kes was homesick when she was with Voyager. She had a chance to stay with the more advanced Ocampans she met, and she still chose to stay with Voyager. She only left because of her growing powers and the risk she posed to ship and crew. While the rest of the crew wanted to go home, Neelix, Kes and Seven didn't have the same goals. Voyager was their home, the only home any of them had. At least Neelix chose to leave for a new life that he wanted, with a wife and stepson. Seven went with Voyager to Earth to begin a new life (and returned to Voyager in the books). Kes did get a better life, and a redemption story in the books to explain her inexplicable actions at least, but I never bought that Ocampa was truly home in her heart anymore. Voyager was her true home in my opinion.

 

[exodus]

I see Kes's situation a little different than you do. It's a little interesting to me, as I think it's just a matter of perspective, point of view, and not that either of us is right or wrong.
Kes left her people and was happy to build a new life for herself because at least in part because she was "different". She questioned the status quo and wanted more out of life than the safe and traditional life that was expected of her. I had never thought about it like that before, but Kes's beginning could be seen as having parallels to the gay experience, where so many of us have to leave home and build a new life for ourselves away from what is familiar. It's very common for gay people, especially ones who have been cast out or at least alienated from our families to build new families, a chosen family of friends, as Kes did. For me, I see the people Kes belongs with as being her family of choice on Voyager, instead of her returning, tired and defeated, to safe boring Ocampa, where no one understood her.
I do get your point about the theme of the show. Maybe it would've worked if we'd seen some spark of happiness in Kes at going home instead of her looking utterly miserable.
As for behind the scenes, all I remember hearing is that Jeri Ryan got a very cool reception for a very long time from a lot of the cast, including KM, because they resented her replacing JL. I thought that sounded unfair, as it wasn't her fault that JL got fired, but that's what I've heard.
As for Sliders, I have heard a lot of really awful things about how bad the behind the scenes were. There were problems with Sabrina Lloyd being bullied by Kari Whuler or whatever her name was, Maggie, apparently because Sabrina Lloyd was dating someone from the crew and KW was snobbish about that, and that when the other producers got rid of the original creater that there were all sorts of problems, and it showed in the quality of the show. The writers seemed to delight in giving exiting characters terrible exits, but Sabrina Lloyd's Wade got the worst of it by being sent to a "breeding camp" where she'd be repeatedly raped. I've even heard things said about that, that I won't get into just because it's so ugly.
Being aware of how people behind the scenes can do vicious ugly things to a character with malicious intent makes me more wary of the intentions of writers when I see a character treated so badly, especially in an exit story. Kes's exit story wasn't too bad, but bringing her back just to do this to her, I have a hard time believing it wasn't malicious no matter how illogical it may seem. The possibility that it was this bad unintentionally is hard to believe.

If you believe it's illogical and still choose to believe it, then I have nothing left to add to this. It goes back to my first comment about why Kes fans want to make things personal for no reason. It's not the shows fault anymore.

 

[borgboy]

People do illogical things all the time. It wouldn't really be logical of me to assume other people make all their decisions based on logic.
I don't really understand what you mean by "it's not the shows fault anymore." I think it still is their fault, why wouldn't it be?

 

[exodus]

People do illogical things all the time. It wouldn't really be logical of me to assume other people make all their decisions based on logic.
I don't really understand what you mean by "it's not the shows fault anymore." I think it still is their fault, why wouldn't it be?

If you believe the reasons behind the why the story is bad is personal, that's not the writers fault. There are many reasons why what could have started out as a good story went bad.

It could have been a bad story from the start.
It could have gotten ruined due to rewrites during filming.( they're on the set for 16hrs a day. Allot of that is reshoots and rewrites.)
It can be ruined during editing(which happens allot) there very we'll could be scenes cut out due to time that might have helped if left in.
Not that a movie is like a TV show but the best example I can think of right now is "the Incredible Hulk" movie w/ Ed Norton. Half the dialog in the film ended up on the cutting room floor. Putting it back in could change some of the tone and story, maybe for better.

 

[borgboy]

Maybe.
I think that even the original outline, which was probably "Kes comes back all crazy and blows crap up and dies!" sounds pretty awful. I'd think all the rewrites in the world wouldn't have made that any worse. At least they were talked into letting Kes live.

 

[Guy Gardener]

"Who the hell was that?!"

"That was Kes."

"That wasn't the Kes I remember..."

Cue montage of young Kes being sweet and kind.

 

[exodus]

Anyway...

I believe Kes going bonkers and wanting to kill everyone on Voyager is still a possibility.
Didn't Kes at the end of "Coldfire" say that using her powers let's out her dark impulses?
When Tannis had her "bring the fire" and she destroyed the plants, while in the moment she loved it. She loved it so much, she tried to do it again and burned up Tuvok. She swore she would never use them again.
However, when her powers were released by Species 8472 she didn't try to shut them down even knowing using them would
make her do bad things and bring her joy doing it.
She was unfazed by the fact she tried to kill Seven by electrocution.

Sweet innocent Kes, unfazed by her attemp at murder?
Kes could have saved everyone so much trouble had she simply burn up Seska & Cullah.
So here was Kes, fully powered and waiting to be set free to burn people up.
So after 3 years of burning up entire worlds and loving it, Kes dark impulse have consumed her and crazed rage, returns to Voyager to kill them all for encourging her to use these powers and send her former self home to stop herself from ever becoming such and evil twisted creature.
What does her hologram tell her "Remember who you are, remember me."
Kes crying "Yes, I remember now. All these years, there was so much pain..."
"You had me make that to save me, save myself"
Kes is restored and she powers down. The good thoughts return.
Kes goes home.

 

[exodus]

Maybe.
I think that even the original outline, which was probably "Kes comes back all crazy and blows crap up and dies!" sounds pretty awful. I'd think all the rewrites in the world wouldn't have made that any worse. At least they were talked into letting Kes live.

Made the X-Men's "Dark Phoenix Saga" one of the best and most imitated stories. Ever watch the 4400? Pretty sure that's where "Fury's" inspiration comes from too.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Exodus and Borgboy, have you noticed that your text is barely formatted?

It's like you don't know what a paragraph is.

It's frakked, and makes your posts harder to read than they should be.

There are three immediate possibilities for this.

1. You are a dual, artificially inflating both your post counts with master debate.

2. You have a java blocker on and it's setting are set to "high".

3. You are posting from a mobile device.

Carry on.

 

[exodus]

I'm on a moble device.

As long as he and I understand each other, fuck the rest of all ya' ll

 

[borgboy]

I promise I don't have another identity. I'm not currently using a mobile device. I'm guessing I just have poor writing skills.
Gosh though, considering how much debating I've done with exodus I'd be pretty schizophrenic if we were the same person.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Master debate?

 

[exodus]

I promise I don't have another identity. I'm not currently using a mobile device. I'm guessing I just have poor writing skills.
Gosh though, considering how much debating I've done with exodus I'd be pretty schizophrenic if we were the same person.

I'm not worried about it.
We ain't in an English Comp. class and we aren't writing an essay to submit as a term paper. We're just chit chatting on the Trek message board. The stock market won't crash if it's not in paragraph form.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Wouldn't it be funny if this were the fate of all Ocampans, only they usually go deep underground to do it, contributing to the seismic instability of the planet in the process.

 

[exodus]

Master debate?

Pat him on the head.
Put a cookie in his mouth
And send him on his way.
Jeez.

 

[exodus]

Wouldn't it be funny if this were the fate of all Ocampans, only they usually go deep underground to do it, contributing to the seismic instability of the planet in the process.

The Ocampans lost their powers, that part of why Kes left.
She had a yearning suck the life out of planets

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Master debate?

Pat him on the head.
Put a cookie in his mouth
And send him on his way.

If you leave out the "and" in the final line this would be a haiku!

The wonders of posting on devices

 

[Guy Gardener]

I could probably make usable wheels for this PC from my Lego.

If I was chasing my computer down a steep hill, I doubt I would be concerned with punching the enter button.

Never mind.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

My wannabe android piece of crap chinese phone from ebay has no trouble with paragraphs.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No. I can tell when you are on the train.