Well we of course don't know things like population, distance to re-location planet number of availble ships, but in TUC they estimated they could evacute Qo'nos within in the 50 earth year time period. So that could give us an indication of how long it might take to evacuate Romulus. We might still be talking at best a decade.
Could every race join the Federation?
- Thread starter Narwhals!
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I don't have anything to add to the wider implications/possibiilities of this question. Only to toss out a random musing as to how the various Xindi species might make their respective choices. Certainly divided initially, one would think, but for how long and what would the likely particulars of that fault line be as it played out over time?
In the 26th century glimpsed by Archer in "Azati Prime", Klingons are part of the Federation although Daniels could conceivably have been lying or only some and not all Klingons were part of the Federation.
The Borg aren't a real race, and their collective consciousness would never accede to irrelevant life forms.
The Jem'Hadar by definition seem to have a short life span. If the Founders could be convinced to see equality, then they could easily genetically modify the Jem'Hadar.
But most importantly, it just takes time for most civilizations to accept the Federation's ideals.
The Borg aren't a real race, and their collective consciousness would never accede to irrelevant life forms.
The Jem'Hadar by definition seem to have a short life span. If the Founders could be convinced to see equality, then they could easily genetically modify the Jem'Hadar.
But most importantly, it just takes time for most civilizations to accept the Federation's ideals.
We've seen too little of the governments of the Federation Membership to say that each individual Member has to practice democracy, from the example of Ardana other government types are possible.
The Federation Council itself could be democratic without democracy being a Membership requirement. Whatever type of government the Klingons have, it is functional enough to form a nation that is the equal in power to the Federation.
I imagine the Federation charter has something similar to America's tenth amendment, saying all powers not explicitly relegated to the Federation are left to the member planets.
Wow, like Trek made a major mistake on that one. From what we know about the FED'S standards on human rights, they could/should never accept a planet like Ardana as a member.
Then again TOS trek's standards on things were different.
Whatever type of government the Klingons have, it is functional enough to form a nation that is the equal in power to the Federation.
That goes without saying. The Klingons, from their point of view, don't need democracy because their way of government has already gotten them lands, colonies and military power.
But some of the basic ideas of their government would never meet requirements for Federation membership.
That sounds a lot like the Republic (Star Wars). And we know how that turned out.
I think the Federation's membership have democracy as a basic requirement and then some type of constituion that addresses individual and civil rights.
Ardana should have never made the list. If it did, then it's a wonder the Federation didn't end up like the Republic.
Chancellor Gorkon?
Let's see, a powerful democratic institution for a thousand years, then a few decades of various civil wars, followed by (in the EU) a return to democracy.That sounds a lot like the Republic (Star Wars). And we know how that turned out.
it's a wonder the Federation didn't end up like the Republic.
Personally I think everyone is selling the Klingons far too short, especially given the amount of disparate personalities, not to mention evolution of certain characters that we've seen over the many years of onscreen Trek.
Now I'm not saying that the Klingons should join the Federation. Just that the prospect isn't that far-fetched.
From the outside, yes, the Empire appears to be nothing more than a collection of space vikings/barbarians - but surely such a society would be hard-pressed to maintain an interstellar empire as long as it supposedly has? There's got to be much more going on beneath the surface than just the instinct to fight everyone.
Consider the revelations of Enterprise's Judgement, where we learn of the existence of other Klingon castes besides the straight-up warriors. And how their culture had been undergoing a shift towards a more warmongering staunch for some time by that point.
Consider the shift between Enterprise and TOS, where the Klingons appeared far more regimented and disciplined in their approach to combat than the warriors of the previous generation, or The Next Generation.
Clearly Klingon society as a whole is fluid and capable of change, or regression, as much as any human society. And while their society may force the foul-smelling barbarian mould on many of its citizen, it is by no means intrinsically in their nature. Case in point; Worf, a man raised outside Klingon culture yet deeply entrenched in it, who does his best to balance the concept of honour and loyalty he learnt from humans alongside his people's same concepts. Obviously to varying results.
And of course with Worf we were given Martok; a commoner, supposedly forbidden from joining the warrior class (Caste?), who rises through the ranks to general and then Chancellor, a man who escaped a certain death in a Dominion prison camp, a man who knows how fickle fate can be. I believe he's displayed a tolerance for other cultures and beings rarely seen outside of Worf. When challenged by Nog to get a handle on his troops, he respects the Ferengi's courage, whereas you'd expect any normal background barbarian Klingon to simply stab him for disrespecting his honour - but Martok isn't like that, he knows simply swooping into battle at a moments notice isn't everything.
He is Klingon to the core and won't apologise for it, however, he has a respect for other species rarely seen in cliche warriors. Another interesting example I like is What You Leave Behind, during the toast on Cardassia Prime with himself, Captain Sisko and Admiral Ross. Martok is revelling in victory, but Ross and Sisko can't get over all the death around them and simply pour their drinks out. Is Martok outraged? Nope, he shrugs and mutters about humans having no stomach for bloodshed (or something; the line was Klingon, not my first language
). He's not going to force the issue the way a typical Klingon might.
My point being; we've seen the capacity of Klingon characters to evolve, change, act outside of their species so-called character, and we know their society is capable of change.
Is it so far-fetched that Chancellor Martok, or his successor, could maybe introduce a series of reforms elevating the status of the other Klingon castes? Perhaps eventually see a rebirth of the empire as a more egalitarian society? Maybe the Klingon Defence Force could be re-purposed as the Federation Defence Force, creating a complimentary service to Starfleet, while still allowing the warrior class to exercise their martial prowess when the need arises?
Just spit-balling there at the end, back to the point: The Federation is about embracing diversity, and I think the Klingons have that in spades, we just haven't seen as much of it as we have the Klingon military.
And if it's possible the Klingons could one day join the Federation, then anyone can.
Now I'm not saying that the Klingons should join the Federation. Just that the prospect isn't that far-fetched.
From the outside, yes, the Empire appears to be nothing more than a collection of space vikings/barbarians - but surely such a society would be hard-pressed to maintain an interstellar empire as long as it supposedly has? There's got to be much more going on beneath the surface than just the instinct to fight everyone.
Consider the revelations of Enterprise's Judgement, where we learn of the existence of other Klingon castes besides the straight-up warriors. And how their culture had been undergoing a shift towards a more warmongering staunch for some time by that point.
Consider the shift between Enterprise and TOS, where the Klingons appeared far more regimented and disciplined in their approach to combat than the warriors of the previous generation, or The Next Generation.
Clearly Klingon society as a whole is fluid and capable of change, or regression, as much as any human society. And while their society may force the foul-smelling barbarian mould on many of its citizen, it is by no means intrinsically in their nature. Case in point; Worf, a man raised outside Klingon culture yet deeply entrenched in it, who does his best to balance the concept of honour and loyalty he learnt from humans alongside his people's same concepts. Obviously to varying results.
And of course with Worf we were given Martok; a commoner, supposedly forbidden from joining the warrior class (Caste?), who rises through the ranks to general and then Chancellor, a man who escaped a certain death in a Dominion prison camp, a man who knows how fickle fate can be. I believe he's displayed a tolerance for other cultures and beings rarely seen outside of Worf. When challenged by Nog to get a handle on his troops, he respects the Ferengi's courage, whereas you'd expect any normal background barbarian Klingon to simply stab him for disrespecting his honour - but Martok isn't like that, he knows simply swooping into battle at a moments notice isn't everything.
He is Klingon to the core and won't apologise for it, however, he has a respect for other species rarely seen in cliche warriors. Another interesting example I like is What You Leave Behind, during the toast on Cardassia Prime with himself, Captain Sisko and Admiral Ross. Martok is revelling in victory, but Ross and Sisko can't get over all the death around them and simply pour their drinks out. Is Martok outraged? Nope, he shrugs and mutters about humans having no stomach for bloodshed (or something; the line was Klingon, not my first language
). He's not going to force the issue the way a typical Klingon might.My point being; we've seen the capacity of Klingon characters to evolve, change, act outside of their species so-called character, and we know their society is capable of change.
Is it so far-fetched that Chancellor Martok, or his successor, could maybe introduce a series of reforms elevating the status of the other Klingon castes? Perhaps eventually see a rebirth of the empire as a more egalitarian society? Maybe the Klingon Defence Force could be re-purposed as the Federation Defence Force, creating a complimentary service to Starfleet, while still allowing the warrior class to exercise their martial prowess when the need arises?
Just spit-balling there at the end, back to the point: The Federation is about embracing diversity, and I think the Klingons have that in spades, we just haven't seen as much of it as we have the Klingon military.
And if it's possible the Klingons could one day join the Federation, then anyone can.
One problem I see with that is that Klingon individual houses own and operate their own militaries. That might mean a house relinquishing their personal armies to the Federation and following its rules --I just don't see them doing that.
I think the Klingon government would have to undergo a serious fundamental change in order for things like this to happen.
Let's see, a powerful democratic institution for a thousand years, then a few decades of various civil wars, followed by (in the EU) a return to democracy.That sounds a lot like the Republic (Star Wars). And we know how that turned out.
it's a wonder the Federation didn't end up like the Republic.
Ahh, but look what it turned into--it went from being a republic to an opressive empire, all because of a manipulated senate being tricked into voting a dictator into office.
It can be argued that a somewhat similar situation was seen in "Homefront" DS9. It showed some interesting symptoms.
Also bear in mind the only Klingons we tend to ever seen are the military and the nobility.
Other than Worf who ends up in the nobility, we only see a handful of Klingons who don't fall into those categories. We see the woman in Sins Of The Father, the scientist in Suspicions, the religious Klingons from Voyager, the lawyer from Rules of Engagement, B'elana's mother, the children in Birthright, and that's pretty much it. We don't get a strong sense from them that the values of the nobility reflect in the proletariat, and the nobility tend to only give the external appearance of honor when most of them are really just devious schemers fighting to increase the influence of their own house. For all we know the common Klingon is tired of war.
Other than Worf who ends up in the nobility, we only see a handful of Klingons who don't fall into those categories. We see the woman in Sins Of The Father, the scientist in Suspicions, the religious Klingons from Voyager, the lawyer from Rules of Engagement, B'elana's mother, the children in Birthright, and that's pretty much it. We don't get a strong sense from them that the values of the nobility reflect in the proletariat, and the nobility tend to only give the external appearance of honor when most of them are really just devious schemers fighting to increase the influence of their own house. For all we know the common Klingon is tired of war.
Which is what I alluded to earlier in my post, that they have undergone fundamental changes in the past and are certainly capable of doing so again.
Obviously I'm not talking about the empire flipping a switch and suddenly becoming humongous, but rather a decades long process of reforming the empire into a more balanced, central power, possibly using the other Klingon castes to fill out the place of stubborn warriors who refuse to change. It's possible is all I'm saying.
Let's see, a powerful democratic institution for a thousand years, then a few decades of various civil wars, followed by (in the EU) a return to democracy.That sounds a lot like the Republic (Star Wars). And we know how that turned out.
it's a wonder the Federation didn't end up like the Republic.
I don't know. I think there's something to be said for the argument that, just like the Galactic Empire was to the Order of the Sith, the Galactic Republic was nothing more than a mechanism to legitimize and perpetuate the Jedi Order's dominance over Galactic civilization. It was never a genuine democracy, because real power was monopolized by the Jedi.
In this view, the actual undemocratic nature of the state remains relatively unchanged, and the Clone Wars and the rise of the Empire was nothing more than the process by which one state church displaced the other by use of plutocratic puppets.
Just a note to anyone else thinking of replying to this...
Don't bother. He's already gone.
^ Was doing a count down for it to happen lol
In order to join the Federation, the Klingons will have to give up these cultural/political practices:
Barring women from serving on the High Council
Barring women from leading their own Houses
Accepting new chancellors who won in a duel
Killing military subordinates for only offering suggestions
The Right of Vengeance
Barring commoners from becoming officers
Crushing any states that want independence
House rule over general populations
I think this is just a handful of requirements--it may be much more. The Klingons would be asked to give up what they think sums up their actual culture--can they really do that?
Their form of democracy always confused me. The senators were making important on the spot decisions without consulting their member worlds.
They actually gave a senate seat to a foreign corporation.
The Jedi was the defacto police force/military that recruited and elected
their own members.
The civil war and turning into an empire the way it did, even briefly, represented a humongous failure.
In order to join the Federation, the Klingons will have to give up these cultural/political practices:
Barring women from serving on the High Council
Barring women from leading their own Houses
Accepting new chancellors who won in a duel
Killing military subordinates for only offering suggestions
The Right of Vengeance
Barring commoners from becoming officers
Crushing any states that want independence
House rule over general populations
I think this is just a handful of requirements--it may be much more. The Klingons would be asked to give up what they think sums up their actual culture--can they really do that?
Let's see, a powerful democratic institution for a thousand years, then a few decades of various civil wars, followed by (in the EU) a return to democracy.That sounds a lot like the Republic (Star Wars). And we know how that turned out.
it's a wonder the Federation didn't end up like the Republic.
I don't know. I think there's something to be said for the argument that, just like the Galactic Empire was to the Order of the Sith, the Galactic Republic was nothing more than a mechanism to legitimize and perpetuate the Jedi Order's dominance over Galactic civilization. It was never a genuine democracy, because real power was monopolized by the Jedi.
Their form of democracy always confused me. The senators were making important on the spot decisions without consulting their member worlds.
They actually gave a senate seat to a foreign corporation.
The Jedi was the defacto police force/military that recruited and elected
their own members.
The civil war and turning into an empire the way it did, even briefly, represented a humongous failure.
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The Klingon Empire doesn't seem to be structured a lot differently from the Mafia. A bunch of families--specifically families--killing each other for power.
Doctor M'Benga,
Commodore Stone,
bunch of admirals,
that whiny guy on Galilieo Seven,
Sisko Senior (and Junior),
Lt. Masters,
Miss Uhura,
bunch of Vulcans,
that engineer standing next to Scotty in TMP ...
Captain Donald Varley--one of the better early performances in TNG, and most of it by Captain's log.
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