Conundrum

[Renvar]

At the beginning of this episode, Troi beats Data in a game of chess...wait, what? Troi beats Data at chess? That can't be right. I mean, chess is complex, but you can't tell me that Data cannot figure out every single possible strategy of every conceivable configuration of pieces. Data didn't see the "completely unanticipated response" to his "classic attack" coming?

 

[sbk1234]

He got distracted because her boobs were really firm that day.

 

[Renvar]

He got distracted because her boobs were really firm that day.

Not that we care about such things in this day and age.

 

[Nebusj]

At the beginning of this episode, Troi beats Data in a game of chess...wait, what? Troi beats Data at chess? That can't be right. I mean, chess is complex, but you can't tell me that Data cannot figure out every single possible strategy of every conceivable configuration of pieces. Data didn't see the "completely unanticipated response" to his "classic attack" coming?

There are disputes about the number of possible chess games with estimates ranging from as low as 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to as high as 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

For comparison, the latter number is roughly equal to the first number times the total number of particles existing in this universe. That is to say, it's not possible to simply make up a roster of every chess configuration and select what to do; one must make decisions about likely courses of action worth studying and discard others. Obviously, those selections may be wrong.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I'm sorry every time I watch the episode I'm waiting for Kristin to show up

 

[Unicron]

Just because Data is skilled enough to see advanced combinations of pieces doesn't mean he was guaranteed victory. Chess masters do that, and they do it well, but they still screw up. Spock was able to program his computer with the capacity to at least get him in a stalemate.

 

[Red Ranger]

Renvar: Generally, I agree with your opinion. But we don't know how advanced the Betazed brain and mind is. Lwaxana Troi always seemed to maintain how backward humas were in comparison to Betazeds. For all we know, their telepathic and empathic abilities may give them a special advantage when playing games of strategy like chess. I always thought it would be interesting to see a fully telepathic Betazed Starfleet captain. How could an enemy outwit such a captain? Hmm! -- RR

 

[sbk1234]

Seriously, it reminds me of the opening scene from Where No Man Has Gone Before, where Kirk beats Spock at chess. He wins because he doesn't play "logically." ("His next move should have been the rook.") I tend to think that Troi used a similar tactic.

 

[Trekker4747]

It's possible that, like people, Data has to "learn" chess. Now, technichally he may be able to calculate moves and such, but he may lack the "intuition" to know the kind of style a person is playing, what they might do next, etc. Infact, there's been evidence that Data tends to "over think" things to the point of fault.

 

[sbk1234]

^^^Agreed. Example: Peak Performance.

 

[zephramc]

We've seen Riker beat Data at poker and the smug strategist in Peak Performance beat Data at Strategema (sp?). Obviously Data can be outwitted. Furthermore Troi may have been a chess grandmaster for all we know.

 

[Trekker4747]

We've seen Riker beat Data at poker and the smug strategist in Peak Performance beat Data at Strategema (sp?). Obviously Data can be outwitted. Furthermore Troi may have been a chess grandmaster for all we know.

Yep. Counselor Deanna "What is a Warp-Core Breach?" Troi is a Grandmaster.

 

[Timo]

To be fair, all Troi ever says on that subject is this:

O'Brien: "If it falls to fifteen percent the field will collapse and we'll have a containment breach."
Troi: "Which means?"
Ro: "Which means the ship will explode."

Now, to deduce from this that Troi didn't mean what a "containment breach" is would be similar to the old Police Squad / Maxwell Smart / Airplane! jokes:

"It's your wife on the phone!"
"What is it?"
"It's this little machine here, the one that's ringing and has this spiral cord and all."

Troi isn't asking what a containment breach is. She is asking what a containment breach at fifteen percent field strength means. Which is a perfectly valid question to ask - and one for which we never really get an answer. After all, Ro's line is not an answer to Troi's question. It's merely a sarcastic quip, intended to undermine Troi's authority.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Trekker4747]

To be fair, all Troi ever says on that subject is this:

O'Brien: "If it falls to fifteen percent the field will collapse and we'll have a containment breach."
Troi: "Which means?"
Ro: "Which means the ship will explode."

Now, to deduce from this that Troi didn't mean what a "containment breach" is would be similar to the old Police Squad / Maxwell Smart / Airplane! jokes:

"It's your wife on the phone!"
"What is it?"
"It's this little machine here, the one that's ringing and has this spiral cord and all."

Troi isn't asking what a containment breach is. She is asking what a containment breach at fifteen percent field strength means. Which is a perfectly valid question to ask - and one for which we never really get an answer. After all, Ro's line is not an answer to Troi's question. It's merely a sarcastic quip, intended to undermine Troi's authority.

Timo Saloniemi

Well, I suppose we could look at it this way.

But let's go Meta here for a moment and look at it this way:

The audience might not know what a containment breach means. Therefore, Troi has become the scene's cabbage head, she has to ask the question so the audiance can learn what a containment breach is.

So, in the context of the way the scene was written, Troi doesn't know what a containment breach is.

 

[zephramc]

We've seen Riker beat Data at poker and the smug strategist in Peak Performance beat Data at Strategema (sp?). Obviously Data can be outwitted. Furthermore Troi may have been a chess grandmaster for all we know.

Yep. Counselor Deanna "What is a Warp-Core Breach?" Troi is a Grandmaster.

Point taken.

 

[Jon1701]

To be fair, all Troi ever says on that subject is this:

O'Brien: "If it falls to fifteen percent the field will collapse and we'll have a containment breach."
Troi: "Which means?"
Ro: "Which means the ship will explode."

Now, to deduce from this that Troi didn't mean what a "containment breach" is would be similar to the old Police Squad / Maxwell Smart / Airplane! jokes:

"It's your wife on the phone!"
"What is it?"
"It's this little machine here, the one that's ringing and has this spiral cord and all."

Troi isn't asking what a containment breach is. She is asking what a containment breach at fifteen percent field strength means. Which is a perfectly valid question to ask - and one for which we never really get an answer. After all, Ro's line is not an answer to Troi's question. It's merely a sarcastic quip, intended to undermine Troi's authority.

Timo Saloniemi

Well, I suppose we could look at it this way.

But let's go Meta here for a moment and look at it this way:

The audience might not know what a containment breach means. Therefore, Troi has become the scene's cabbage head, she has to ask the question so the audiance can learn what a containment breach is.

So, in the context of the way the scene was written, Troi doesn't know what a containment breach is.

Yeah, but this type of shit happens all the time in Trek. Lead characters do it all the time. It just happened to be Troi's week to explain the plot device to the audience.

Saves me explaining what a warp core breach is to my mother.

 

[Timo]

It's rather cute when they do this in DS9 on the subject of "pheromone sensors".

In "The Nagus", Rom and Zek's forgettable son use those in an attempt at Quark's life. Odo gets the cabbagehead role as O'Brien explains to him (and to the audience) what a pheromone sensor is. Yet in "Improbable Cause", an attempt is made at Garak's life using the same tech, and Odo's description of the tech comes as seeming news to O'Brien!

Did O'Brien forget about these sensors in the meantime or what?

To be fair, we could explain this away by going all semantic on the two bits of dialogue. In "The Nagus", we could argue that Odo knew all along what the pheromone sensor is, and he simply cut to the chase after listening through too many words of needless technobabble from O'Brien, thus stating "You mean it homes in on body odor" rather than asking "You mean it homes in on body odor?!?".

In "Improbable Cause", we could say that O'Brien's puzzled "A what?" comment only meant he couldn't believe a pheromone sensor had been used, not that he didn't know what one was. So essentially we'd be doing the very same thing I tried with Troi above.

Timo Saloniemi