constitution class?
- Thread starter judge alba
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Are you saying *I'm* the kind of person who refuses to accept...or do you mean the royal you here?
3D Master
Rear Admiral
:bwahahaha: A plausible construct!? Only if you can have your cake and eat it to, could it be a plausible construct.
Sweety, if there is a weak president, making the planet a member so Starfleet can protect it IS USELESS! If the president is weak, he'll never have guts to order Starfleet to guard that planet and attack any Tellarites trying to continue the exploitation! That's not the actions of a weak president, but the actions of an EXTREMELY harsh and tough president. And if a president like that was the head of an executive branch of government that supersedes individual members, it would never have come to this, because he would have shut the Tellarites down a long time ago.
Except that isn't closer AT ALL. You essentially want throw an entire episode out the window, while I only want to disregard a sentence here and there. On top of that, what I propose requires the least suspension of disbelief and completely re-writing just about the entirely of TOS. It remains true to a very realistic model of the Federation emergence, and does not require the ridiculous concept of "poof" there's the Federation.
Which is bull. There have been plenty of shows who didn't have continuity errors up the wazoo, and when they do have them, they aren't massive ones where you have toss entire episodes out the window, as you would have us do with Journey to Babel. Now the occasional forgetting of a trow-away line, and slight reinterpretation of events to put them more in line, is okay. But completely removing an episode, because a later throwaway line somehow says it could not have happened is ridiculous. You deal with the throwaway line, not an entire episode dealing with the subject.
(The only exception to this is Enterprise, but it should be an exception, this breaks continuity in so many ways it isn't even funny, and it's trash on top of it, which means that we collectively should have tossed that junk out the window a long time ago.)
That not true because during this debate you have never disregarded a sentence here or there. So far you have disregarded an entire series and entire episodes.
Also I do not know where your getting this idea of "poof" there's the Federation, being its more like "poof" there is a Federation but there is nobody in charge! So no it's not a realistic model of the Federation emergence when there is as you say "no leadership".
3D Master
Rear Admiral
That's why there's no UN, because it's so unrealistic.
No. I've already explained it a hundred times, but you know, reading, difficult.
That's why there's no UN, because it's so unrealistic.
No. I've already explained it a hundred times, but you know, reading, difficult.
Right
So none of the statements quoted above are derived from this exchange in Journey to Babel?
3D Master
Rear Admiral
It is indeed derived from that exchange, but NOT from the accusation, as you can see in your lovely quotes. Maybe you should try reading them, and see if there is even one quote where the accusation is the relevant part of the quote.
MCCOY: Sure. A formal reception tonight, a hundred and fourteen delegates aboard for two weeks, thirty two of them ambassadors, (Spock joins them) half of them mad at the other half, and the whole lot touchier than a raw antimatter pile over this Coridan question.
Captain's log, Stardate 3842.3. We have departed Vulcan for the neutral planetoid code-named Babel. Since it is in our sector, the Enterprise has been assigned to transport ambassadors of Federation planets to this vitally important council. The issues of the council are politically complex, the passengers explosive.
KIRK: Starfleet force is used only as a last resort.
Captain's log, Stardate 3842.4. The interplanetary conference will consider the petition of the Coridan planets to be admitted to the Federation. The Coridan system has been claimed by some of the races now aboard our ship as delegates, races who have strong personal reasons for keeping Coridan out of the Federation. The most pressing problem aboard the Enterprise is to make sure open warfare doesn't break out among the delegates before the conference begins.
SAREK: Under Federation law, Coridan can be protected and its wealth administered for the benefit of its people.
SAREK: Coridan has nearly unlimited wealth of dilithium crystals, but it is under-populated and unprotected. This invites illegal mining operations.
GAV: Illegal? You accuse us?
SAREK: Some of your ships have been carrying Coridan dilithium crystals.
GAV: You call us thieves?
Again there is nothing that says or suggests that there was no Federation government and no Federation president.
Captain's log, Stardate 3842.3. We have departed Vulcan for the neutral planetoid code-named Babel. Since it is in our sector, the Enterprise has been assigned to transport ambassadors of Federation planets to this vitally important council. The issues of the council are politically complex, the passengers explosive.
KIRK: Starfleet force is used only as a last resort.
Captain's log, Stardate 3842.4. The interplanetary conference will consider the petition of the Coridan planets to be admitted to the Federation. The Coridan system has been claimed by some of the races now aboard our ship as delegates, races who have strong personal reasons for keeping Coridan out of the Federation. The most pressing problem aboard the Enterprise is to make sure open warfare doesn't break out among the delegates before the conference begins.
SAREK: Under Federation law, Coridan can be protected and its wealth administered for the benefit of its people.
SAREK: Coridan has nearly unlimited wealth of dilithium crystals, but it is under-populated and unprotected. This invites illegal mining operations.
GAV: Illegal? You accuse us?
SAREK: Some of your ships have been carrying Coridan dilithium crystals.
GAV: You call us thieves?
Again there is nothing that says or suggests that there was no Federation government and no Federation president.
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3D Master, please try to be more civil. Honestly, it's not that hard to avoid personal attacks in your posts.
Constitution Class . . . is that something you have to pass to become a citizen?
How about all of them.
Sarek & Gav said:
You did mention that the Tellerites were exploiting Coridan in all but one. Which ties into the specifics what Sarek said.
Of course Sarek mentions that Federation law, not Federation military might would protect Coridan. As a member Tellar would be obliged to stop an illegal operation in the Coridan System, another member world . This would seem to indicate that all members of the UFP follow the same laws. A unity of law would seem to indicate a unity of government, with Federal laws overruling local laws
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3D Master
Rear Admiral
Go back to school to relearn comprehensive reading, and you'll understand that those are not the relevant parts of the quotes, hell, reading altogether - none of them contained an accusation.
No, Sarek does NOT say that Federation law would protect Coridan, he says, that UNDER Federation law, Coridan can be protected. That's a small but significant difference. What Sarek is saying, that if Coridan is a member, the Federation can protect them from any illegal activities - which the Tellarites happen to be doing. If Coridan is not a member, the Federation is NOT allowed to protect them. The only way to protect someone from illegal activities, is to send in law enforcement aka the coast guard aka STARFLEET.
In short, Coridan would get a Starfleet guard squadron, and they'd be protecting them from a fellow Federation member, that the Federation can not simply order from stopping what they're doing.
Nope. If they were following the same laws, than it wouldn't matter if Coridan were a member or not. Stealing and exploiting another species resources would be an unlawful thing to do, regardless of whether Coridan were a Federation member, and thus something that the Federation would be able to stop regardless of Coridan being a member of the Federation. However, it's specifically stated that if Coridan is not a member, it can't be protected. The result is obvious - what is it that the Federation can't do if Coridan is not a member? They can't very well send Starfleet to protect a world that is not a member of the Federation, now can they? It would violate jurisdiction problems, possibly antagonize nearby large powers, leaving actually members less protected to protect a non-member from a member.
This also results in the following: the Federation is not able to stop the Tellarites from doing what they are doing through governmental and political pressure.
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You act as like that the Tellarites as a whole that there government is exploiting Coridan which is never stated! Sarek states that "some Tellarites ships have been carrying Coridan dilithium crystals". He never stated that they were performing illegal mining operations, as far as we know the Tellarites have been simply dealing with a third party like the Orions which more then likely were the one's performing the illegal mining operations and selling of dilithium crystals! (KIRK: Yes, of course. With Orion carefully neutral, they'd clean up supplying dilithium to both sides and continue to raid Coridan.) Due to this we do not know if the Tellarite government was even involved nor can you call some ships as exploiting another species. Also you do not know if those ships were operated by the government, they could have simply been operated privately (civilian ships). Which would make it alot harder for any single government to tell another government to stop something because they were not the responsible party.
Folks,
Frankly, the lines in Journey to Babel used to prove one point or the other regarding the form of the Federation government are sketchy at best. So would you all just chill out about it? Sheesh!
Back on topic: I accept that Constitution-class is the right designation for NCC-1701. It's a storied ship name in American history, so why not use it for the 23rd century Federation's top-of-the-line ships, their equivalent of first-raters or aircraft carriers? Although I do wish that in some future ST series we do see an Enterprise that is Enterprise-class! Too bad they didn't do that with the Sovereign-class, which is a cheesy name for a starship class, IMHO.
Use of American names for ship classes does bring up a point about how American-oriented TOS was, but hey, it was made by Americans! And they did have a Potemkin, a Russian ship name, in The Ultimate Computer.
TNG did use some innovative names, and had a nod to British seafaring history by naming one ship the Victory, presumably named after Lord Nelson's HMS Victory, the vessel he served on when he died.
Red Ranger
Frankly, the lines in Journey to Babel used to prove one point or the other regarding the form of the Federation government are sketchy at best. So would you all just chill out about it? Sheesh!
Back on topic: I accept that Constitution-class is the right designation for NCC-1701. It's a storied ship name in American history, so why not use it for the 23rd century Federation's top-of-the-line ships, their equivalent of first-raters or aircraft carriers? Although I do wish that in some future ST series we do see an Enterprise that is Enterprise-class! Too bad they didn't do that with the Sovereign-class, which is a cheesy name for a starship class, IMHO.
Use of American names for ship classes does bring up a point about how American-oriented TOS was, but hey, it was made by Americans! And they did have a Potemkin, a Russian ship name, in The Ultimate Computer.
TNG did use some innovative names, and had a nod to British seafaring history by naming one ship the Victory, presumably named after Lord Nelson's HMS Victory, the vessel he served on when he died.
Red Ranger
1) Maybe you're not saying what you think you're saying or just not saying it well.
2) I don't recall Sarek mentioning any sort of military force at all only the force of law. Under UFP law a member world cannot exploit the resources of another member world. The protection comes in the form of laws not a "guard squadron". You seem to be jumping to a military solution with out any supporting evidence. And lets face it, Sarek isn't the sort to seek a military solution to a problem without exhausting all other solutions.
3) All we know is that Coridan is being exploited. Possibly by Tellarites. We know some Tellarite ships carried Coridan dilithium. Gav is outraged by the idea the dilithium was obtained illegally. He also mentions Tellarite mining interests. One can conclude that there are legitimate Tellarite mining interests on Coridan, otherwise he would not have mentioned them.
4) You've decided that the Tellarites are guilty because it fits in with your conclusions. By the episode's end we know that its the Orions (Who don't belong to the UFP) who are the guilty party. Raiding Coridan for its dilithium, brewing discontent among UFP members and hoping to profit from the distrust.
5) Red Ranger is correct. The information in Journey to Babel casts very little light on the UFPs governmental structure.
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Then again, that would imply that Starfleet was ready to risk a famous name on a potentially unviable prototype ship...
I sort of like to think that the early UFP Starfleet had enough Enterprise class vessels left in service (even though the class ship NX-01 was retired) that the later Starfleet felt it shouldn't introduce a new ship class by that same name. It would be a bit like introducing a new Dreadnought or Monitor class of battleships. Or, say, General Motors launching the new Model T. Although of course the military would be more tradition-minded and conservative than a commercial producer.
Timo Saloniemi
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Sure, I get it. Multiple quotes, not a single one mentioning an accusation, not a single one being even remotely about an accusation, every single one is about Coridan needing to be a member in order for them to be protected, and I do this in multiple different manners, but I'm the one not saying it well, uhuh, riiiight.
Wrong.
I'm going to have to repeat myself, AGAIN, I see.
Sarek did not mention the force of law, he didn't do this at all. He said that UNDER the law, and by extension UNDER the force of law Coridan could be protected.
This is what I mean with you not having a grasp of comprehensive reading.
The force of law, and under the law are subtle but significant differences. The force of law is the law itself. One is not allowed to do it, and the punishment for disobeying this law is...
The law, and the force of law is a massively extensive statement, which means it is illegal to do things, and there are ways to fight these things.
However, UNDER the law, means something different. "UNDER the law Coridan can be protected" does not speak about the law itself, what it means is "all the tools and actions legally available to enforce the law."
He / The Federation Council may start with sanctions, but Starfleet IS one of those tools available. Then comes another key word, which is very important, especially considering who says it: the logical, precise Vulcan Sarek. That word is "protected". Sanctions and punishments do not protect Coridan, it only hurts the ones exploiting Coridan. The only way to protect Coridan, is to guard it from further exploitation. And the only ones who can do that, is Starfleet.
Of course he's outraged!
Even if he knew for a certain fact that his government is guilty as sin, he'd STILL be outraged.
But him being an ambassador employed by his government, he almost certainly wasn't told - a little something called "plausible deniability". An ancient and widely used tool in diplomacy.
It would rather defeat the point of trying to keep Coridan from the Federation if they happily announce to one and all they're illegally exploiting Coridan.
:sighs:
Nope.
Seriously, go back up, and please tell me in all those quotes, where I said that the Tellarites are guilty.
Whether they are guilty or not, doesn't matter.
What matters is what needed to be done to protect Coridan from the Tellarites, whether Cordian required protection from the Tellarites or not, doesn't matter.
It casts enough.
they also used Excalibur and Exeter...
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