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constitution class?

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One would think that "star fleet" would also be the standard Universal Translation for all the names that all the weird space aliens would come up with for their spatial navies...

UESPA to me sounds pretty similar to, say, NOAA or DARPA. Plenty of synergy with the US armed forced there, although it would take a time of major crisis to see those organizations actually integrated into, say, the USN. Yeah, UESPA definitely sounds civilian, as I can't think of any military suborganization that would call itself "agency".

Except, in a sense, the Central Intelligence Agency and its ilk. Come to think of it, UESPA would also be a classically fitting cover name for an interstellar intelligence organization serving Earth interests...

Timo Saloniemi
 
CIA's civilian. the military intelligence bureau in the US is the DIA, the Defence Intelligence Agency.

NSA (National Security Agency) is also civilian...

there used to be the AIA, Air Intelligence Agency, but it's now the Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Agency
 
Why couldn't Earth's Starfleet have been the model for the Federation Starfleet after its formation and the Federation members just decided to use that name (or at least the Terrans did; I'm sure it's called something else in Vulcan, Andorian, etc)?

Very true and is what probably happened. Being it was Earth/Starfleet who lead the formation of the Federation, it somehow was decided by all the first members who formed the Federation to have Starfleet as its military and deep-space exploratory service.

Why? Maybe its because Earth/Starfleet set the standard of exploration, maybe it set the standard of being the military due to the Earth/Romulan war. Maybe it had all the combined great attributes that each of the founding member races had, which each race separately did not have.

In the end I think we can except that Earth/Starfleet is the carry over to the more modern day Federation Starfleet. Just like 20th century United States rank structure has carried over in Starfleet. Also the same can be said to section 31 which is an organization which was started under Earth/Starfleet, which is still apart or has carried over to Fed/Starfleet like USEPA.
 
Starfleet's the model for the UFP Starfleet because the Andorians refused to serve in 'Vulcan High Command' and the Vulcans refused to serve in 'Andorian Imperial Guard' and the Tellaritess refused to serve in both.

but everyone could get into 'Starfleet'
 
Why couldn't Earth's Starfleet have been the model for the Federation Starfleet after its formation and the Federation members just decided to use that name (or at least the Terrans did; I'm sure it's called something else in Vulcan, Andorian, etc)?

Very true and is what probably happened. Being it was Earth/Starfleet who lead the formation of the Federation, it somehow was decided by all the first members who formed the Federation to have Starfleet as its military and deep-space exploratory service.

No, there was no Earth Starfleet, therefor it can't lead the formation of the Federation. And yeah, I can see the formation members right away at the moment of signing give away all military and deep-space exploration, not to a joint-venture, but to the organization owned, created, and utterly under control of just one species.

Yep, that'll happen.

That must be why the Vulcans still have their own exploration fleet all the way in the 24th century...

Uh... wait a minute...

Why? Maybe its because Earth/Starfleet set the standard of exploration, maybe it set the standard of being the military due to the Earth/Romulan war. Maybe it had all the combined great attributes that each of the founding member races had, which each race separately did not have.

They didn't set the standard for any exploration. The Vulcans and other species were exploring long before any Earth organization started doing it. And handing over the defense/military weapons to ONE species, just at the starting line? Nobody in his right mind would do that. They wouldn't even give it away to a joint venture that could be usurped by one of the species; especially given that some if not all of the species have bad blood between them.

In the end I think we can except that Earth/Starfleet is the carry over to the more modern day Federation Starfleet. Just like 20th century United States rank structure has carried over in Starfleet. Also the same can be said to section 31 which is an organization which was started under Earth/Starfleet, which is still apart or has carried over to Fed/Starfleet like USEPA.

Nope, we can't.
 
I was watching a few tos episodes the other day and it got me thinking. not once when they said about the enterprise did they mention she was a constitution class star ship. not that i can remember. So I was wondering when was the first cannon or on screen mention of the enterprise being a connie?.

Good Question???
 
Why couldn't Earth's Starfleet have been the model for the Federation Starfleet after its formation and the Federation members just decided to use that name (or at least the Terrans did; I'm sure it's called something else in Vulcan, Andorian, etc)?

Very true and is what probably happened. Being it was Earth/Starfleet who lead the formation of the Federation, it somehow was decided by all the first members who formed the Federation to have Starfleet as its military and deep-space exploratory service.

No, there was no Earth Starfleet, therefor it can't lead the formation of the Federation. And yeah, I can see the formation members right away at the moment of signing give away all military and deep-space exploration, not to a joint-venture, but to the organization owned, created, and utterly under control of just one species.

Yep, that'll happen.

That must be why the Vulcans still have their own exploration fleet all the way in the 24th century...

Uh... wait a minute...

Lets be clear about this, being yes there was an Earth/Starfleet. Simply by watching ST: Enterprise we know this!

Also nobody said that the founding members of the Federation simply signed over all there military and deep-space exploration to one species. What would be the point of having a couple of races to include humans being the founding members of an organization called the Federation then?

As of the 24th century Vulcan had there own planetary defence force which more then normally alot of the races had, it would be like having or comparing it to a Coast Guard. Also just because these ships were operated by Vulcan, it is not known that these vessels were apart of Starfleet or were operated under Vulcan.

3D Master;1717647 [quote said:
They didn't set the standard for any exploration. The Vulcans and other species were exploring long before any Earth organization started doing it. And handing over the defense/military weapons to ONE species, just at the starting line? Nobody in his right mind would do that. They wouldn't even give it away to a joint venture that could be usurped by one of the species; especially given that some if not all of the species have bad blood between them.

As far as we know by watching ST:Enterprise, the Vulcans were the only major race that explored or had certain resources towards exploration. We also know the Vulcans while exploring only explored what they deemed logical, it also is well known for its reluctance to embrace unorthodox ideas. Due to this they bypassed many anomalies, comets, nebulas and so forth. Which Earth explorers choose to explore, hence changing the way exploration was performed. Hence they changed or set the standard of exploration to where it is in TOS, TNG, VOY & DS9.

Again nobody has stated that Vulcans or other species handed over there defense/military weapons to one species. Last time I checked the founding members of the Federations were the Humans, Vulcans, Tellarites, and Andorians. These races formed the United Federation of Planets which composed of planetary governments that agreed to exist semi-autonomously under a single central government, and to share their knowledge and resources in peaceful cooperation and space exporation.
 
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Very true and is what probably happened. Being it was Earth/Starfleet who lead the formation of the Federation, it somehow was decided by all the first members who formed the Federation to have Starfleet as its military and deep-space exploratory service.

No, there was no Earth Starfleet, therefor it can't lead the formation of the Federation. And yeah, I can see the formation members right away at the moment of signing give away all military and deep-space exploration, not to a joint-venture, but to the organization owned, created, and utterly under control of just one species.

Yep, that'll happen.

That must be why the Vulcans still have their own exploration fleet all the way in the 24th century...

Uh... wait a minute...

Lets be clear about this, being yes there was an Earth/Starfleet. Simply by watching ST: Enterprise we know this!

By simply watching Enterprise we know its trash, and are thus tossing it on the trash heap.

Also nobody said that the founding members of the Federation simply signed over all there military and deep-space exploration to one species. What would be the point of having a couple of races to include humans being the founding members of an organization called the Federation then?
Yes, you did. You said the Eath Starfleet became the Starfleet for the Federation.

As of the 24th century Vulcan had there own planetary defence force which more then normally alot of the races had, it would be like having or comparing it to a Coast Guard. Also just because these ships were operated by Vulcan, it is not known that these vessels were apart of Starfleet or were operated under Vulcan.
I never said anything about a defense fleet, I said EXPLORATION / science fleet. The Vulcans have their own deep space exploration fleet. In fact, the Vulcans explored the gamma quadrant with their exploration and science fleet before Starfleet did.

3D Master;1717647 [quote said:
They didn't set the standard for any exploration. The Vulcans and other species were exploring long before any Earth organization started doing it. And handing over the defense/military weapons to ONE species, just at the starting line? Nobody in his right mind would do that. They wouldn't even give it away to a joint venture that could be usurped by one of the species; especially given that some if not all of the species have bad blood between them.

As far as we know by watching ST:Enterprise, the Vulcans were the only major race that explored or had certain resources towards exploration. We also know the Vulcans while exploring only explored what they deemed logical, it also is well known for its reluctance to embrace unorthodox ideas. Due to this they bypassed many anomalies, comets, nebulas and so forth. Which Earth explorers choose to explore, hence changing the way exploration was performed. Hence they changed or set the standard of exploration to where it is in TOS, TNG, VOY & DS9.

Again nobody has stated that Vulcans or other species handed over there defense/military weapons to one species. Last time I checked the founding members of the Federations were the Humans, Vulcans, Tellarites, and Andorians. These races formed the United Federation of Planets which composed of planetary governments that agreed to exist semi-autonomously under a single central government, and to share their knowledge and resources in peaceful cooperation and space exporation.

Oh, yes you did. Multiple people have said the Earth Starfleet became the Starfleet for the Federation.

And no, actually, they did NOT agree to exist under a single central government, that didn't come until much, much, much later. Even at the time of TOS, with Journey to Babel, we can see the Federation is still more the UN, than even the EU, let alone the US aka the Federation President government of several decades later and into the 24th century.
 
No, there was no Earth Starfleet, therefor it can't lead the formation of the Federation. And yeah, I can see the formation members right away at the moment of signing give away all military and deep-space exploration, not to a joint-venture, but to the organization owned, created, and utterly under control of just one species.

Yep, that'll happen.

That must be why the Vulcans still have their own exploration fleet all the way in the 24th century...

Uh... wait a minute...

Lets be clear about this, being yes there was an Earth/Starfleet. Simply by watching ST: Enterprise we know this!

By simply watching Enterprise we know its trash, and are thus tossing it on the trash heap.

I agree that Enterprise was not that great, but its canon never the less! :vulcan:

Yes, you did. You said the Eath Starfleet became the Starfleet for the Federation.

Yes Earth/Starfleet is the carry over to the more modern day Federation Starfleet.

When the Federation was made the combined races made up the new Federation Starfleet! Again nobody said the founding members of the Federation simply signed over all there military and deep-space exploration to one species.

I never said anything about a defense fleet, I said EXPLORATION / science fleet. The Vulcans have their own deep space exploration fleet. In fact, the Vulcans explored the gamma quadrant with their exploration and science fleet before Starfleet did.

Well feel free to prove that the Vulcans had there own deep exploration fleet by the time of the Dominion War. Its one thing for a civilian/scientific teams from Vulcan to go out and certain areas, but there is no proof that I know of that the Vulcan government still had a fleet of ship exploring unknown space, bypassing Starfleet.

Actually the Federation were the first to explore the Gamma quadrant, not the Vulcans!

Oh, yes you did. Multiple people have said the Earth Starfleet became the Starfleet for the Federation.

And no, actually, they did NOT agree to exist under a single central government, that didn't come until much, much, much later. Even at the time of TOS, with Journey to Babel, we can see the Federation is still more the UN, than even the EU, let alone the US aka the Federation President government of several decades later and into the 24th century.

Again when the Federation was made the combined races made up the new Federation Starfleet! Again nobody said the founding members of the Federation simply signed over all there military and deep-space exploration to one species.

Ah yes, the Federation does work under one government. Hence why there is a Federation President! It also did not happen much later on as you say, being we know Jonathan Archer became one of the Federation Presidents. If you do not want to follow what was said on Enterprise then we also know from TNG that Thomas Vanderbilt became the first President during the founding of the Federation.
 
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Oh, yes you did. Multiple people have said the Earth Starfleet became the Starfleet for the Federation.

And no, actually, they did NOT agree to exist under a single central government, that didn't come until much, much, much later. Even at the time of TOS, with Journey to Babel, we can see the Federation is still more the UN, than even the EU, let alone the US aka the Federation President government of several decades later and into the 24th century.

Again when the Federation was made the combined races made up the new Federation Starfleet! Again nobody said the founding members of the Federation simply signed over all there military and deep-space exploration to one species.

People DID say that. There was no Federation Starfleet, it was simply Earth's Starfleet that served for the Federation, that was what said.

Ah yes, the Federation does work under one government. Hence why there is a Federation President! It also did not happen much later on as you say, being we know Jonathan Archer became one of the Federation Presidents.

Trash, we throw it away.

If you do not want to follow what was said on Enterprise then we also know from TNG that Thomas Vanderbilt became the first President during the founding of the Federation.

If this is true, we should throw that one away as a mistake as well. Journey to Babel tells us there is no Federation president by that time. Which is obvious. The concept that the Federation exactly as in the 24th century, just poof, came into existence back in 2161 is ridiculous. TOS alone, but the movies in combination with Journey to Babel tells us the Federation appeared realistically, just like the EU is only step by step coming together, the Federation started as no more than a military alliance, than became something only barely more, then became something more like UN, than the EU, and only in the later stages of the 23rd century got a centralized, permanent government with a chosen president.

This is realistic, this is real, and makes the history of Star Trek so much richer with so much more possibilities. There's no point in keeping some piece of junk from trash like Enterprise, and some throwaway quote that can't be anything but a mistake.
 
People DID say that. There was no Federation Starfleet, it was simply Earth's Starfleet that served for the Federation, that was what said.

I did not say that!

Trash, we throw it away.

Well thats simply your opinion, also last time I checked you do not make up the rules on what is or what is not canon. Especially when you have nothing to back up your opinion on why we should not consider what was stated or what was shown on Enterprise! :vulcan:

If this is true, we should throw that one away as a mistake as well. Journey to Babel tells us there is no Federation president by that time. Which is obvious. The concept that the Federation exactly as in the 24th century, just poof, came into existence back in 2161 is ridiculous. TOS alone, but the movies in combination with Journey to Babel tells us the Federation appeared realistically, just like the EU is only step by step coming together, the Federation started as no more than a military alliance, than became something only barely more, then became something more like UN, than the EU, and only in the later stages of the 23rd century got a centralized, permanent government with a chosen president.

This is realistic, this is real, and makes the history of Star Trek so much richer with so much more possibilities. There's no point in keeping some piece of junk from trash like Enterprise, and some throwaway quote that can't be anything but a mistake.

Journey to Babel did not state anything about the Federation not having a President.

The Federation did not start out as a military alliance, it was started by the Coalition of Planets which was the precursor of the United Federation of Planets.

The Federation & the EU is not like the Federation being both do not have any sort of power. Nether one can declare war, create policy, they have no power over any country or government. Journey to Babel & movies simply show that the there is a Federation Council which is simply the legislative body of the Federation. It is composed of representatives from the various member worlds which make up Federation law, foreign policy, and does other various jobs just like legislative body does in the US.

Again by what was shown on Enterprise, and TNG, both show that there was indeed a Federation President at the beginning of the founding of the Federation.

Simply saying that Enterprise does not count and statements from other series are mistakes is not good enough reason to disregard being so far you have not shown any real reasons to disregard any of the information except for that it does not back up your personnel opinions.
 
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If this is true, we should throw that one away as a mistake as well. Journey to Babel tells us there is no Federation president by that time. Which is obvious. The concept that the Federation exactly as in the 24th century, just poof, came into existence back in 2161 is ridiculous. TOS alone, but the movies in combination with Journey to Babel tells us the Federation appeared realistically, just like the EU is only step by step coming together, the Federation started as no more than a military alliance, than became something only barely more, then became something more like UN, than the EU, and only in the later stages of the 23rd century got a centralized, permanent government with a chosen president.

This is realistic, this is real, and makes the history of Star Trek so much richer with so much more possibilities. There's no point in keeping some piece of junk from trash like Enterprise, and some throwaway quote that can't be anything but a mistake.

Journey to Babel did not state anything about the Federation not having a President.

Oh, yes it did, see below.

The Federation did not start out as a military alliance, it was started by the Coalition of Planets which was the precursor of the United Federation of Planets.
Oh, yes it did. It started as a military alliance during and after the Earth-Romulan War.

The Federation & the EU is not like the Federation being both do not have any sort of power. Nether one can declare war, create policy, they have no power over any country or government.
The Federation in LATER years, CAN declare war.

Journey to Babel & movies simply show that the there is a Federation Council which is simply the legislative body of the Federation. It is composed of representatives from the various member worlds which make up Federation law, foreign policy, and does other various jobs just like legislative body does in the US.
No, nothing like the US. In the US, said bodies are in Washington DC, and the representatives are there most of the time. When they do leave, they do so under their own power, and return under their own power.

Journey to Babel showed us, that the Federation does NOT have a permanent legislative body. AMBASSADORS (not councilors, not representatives, not senators or the like) but AMBASSADORS, representatives NOT from a member world, but representatives from a member GOVERNMENT - are going to Babel, taken there by a Starfleet vessel, where they will discuss things and vote as their government indicated. In short, it's not even as far as the EU has gotten, where people vote for a representative and this representative is seated permanently in Brussels independent from a country's government. It is, however, like the UN, where representatives, especially ambassadors from governments come to discuss things.

As such, the Federation at the time, does NOT have a permanent legislative branch, thus NOT have a government and does NOT have a president.

Again by what was shown on Enterprise, and TNG, both show that there was indeed a Federation President at the beginning of the founding of the Federation.
TOS shows us there is NOT, Enterprise is trash, and TNG made a mistake.

Simply saying that Enterprise does not count and statements from other series are mistakes is not good enough reason to disregard being so far you have not shown any real reasons to disregard any of the information except for that it does not back up your personnel opinions.
No, it doesn't jive with what TOS showed us of the Federation at that time.

My opinion is that TOS showed a realistic growth of the Federation, and not a magical "poof, suddenly we are here, completely as is" some other series want to show, and that the earlier is (obviously) a much better model. (Not to mention that it opens up many more story telling opportunities than if it just poof came into existence.)

The EU is Europeans, practically siblings - to the point that the only reason that there is a France, Spain, Germany and other countries today is that the three sons of Charles the Great who ruled over the three territories under their father, wouldn't accept any of the other brothers above them and so it splintered apart - and the EU only forms step by little step.

Do you really think, that completely different species, some who have been antagonists for decades if not centuries, can just pound a perfectly functioning government and political entity out of the ground in a few weeks, with president and all?

Please.
 
anyone disagreeing with 3DMaster should save their effort. it's a waste of time. he's locked into his mind-set and won't budge. you'd get more sense talking to a brick wall...
 
[
Journey to Babel showed us, that the Federation does NOT have a permanent legislative body. AMBASSADORS (not councilors, not representatives, not senators or the like) but AMBASSADORS, representatives NOT from a member world, but representatives from a member GOVERNMENT - are going to Babel, taken there by a Starfleet vessel, where they will discuss things and vote as their government indicated.

One episode is hardly conclusive. Especially from way back in TOS, where a lot of the backstories were wildly inconsistent and had not yet been nailed down.
 
Oh, yes it did, see below.

No they did not!

If I am wrong, feel free to post part of the transcript where there was no Federation President at the time of Journey to Babel.

Oh, yes it did. It started as a military alliance during and after the Earth-Romulan War.

No the Coalition of Planets was the precursor of the United Federation of Planets.

During the Earth/Romulan war, what allies helped Earth during the war? The Andorians, Vulcans, Tellarites of which were of the Coalition of Planets with Earth.

If you feel I am wrong, feel free to prove it!

The Federation in LATER years, CAN declare war.

No kidding... Hence why there not like the EU & the UN which you compaired as being alike.

No, nothing like the US. In the US, said bodies are in Washington DC, and the representatives are there most of the time. When they do leave, they do so under their own power, and return under their own power.

Journey to Babel showed us, that the Federation does NOT have a permanent legislative body. AMBASSADORS (not councilors, not representatives, not senators or the like) but AMBASSADORS, representatives NOT from a member world, but representatives from a member GOVERNMENT - are going to Babel, taken there by a Starfleet vessel, where they will discuss things and vote as their government indicated. In short, it's not even as far as the EU has gotten, where people vote for a representative and this representative is seated permanently in Brussels independent from a country's government. It is, however, like the UN, where representatives, especially ambassadors from governments come to discuss things.

As such, the Federation at the time, does NOT have a permanent legislative branch, thus NOT have a government and does NOT have a president.

What are you talking about? Nobody stated that any Federation ambassadors, representatives or what ever else is a permanent position. Just like ambassadors, congressmen, repersentative from our own goverment here in the US, there not permanent postion.

Also no kidding that the Ambassadors from Babel were representing the Federation which is there government, i.e. there home world!

Yes the Federation does have a permanent branch, its called the Federation Council!!! Its like Congress which is a permanent legislative branch within or own government, the congress men or women are voted there to serve a certain term, just like a council man or an ambassador serving under what ever branch in the Federation.

The EU & the UN have no power over any government or sovereign nation, they have no military nor can they declare war. Thats clearly not even close to being like the Federation.

No, it doesn't jive with what TOS showed us of the Federation at that time.

My opinion is that TOS showed a realistic growth of the Federation, and not a magical "poof, suddenly we are here, completely as is" some other series want to show, and that the earlier is (obviously) a much better model. (Not to mention that it opens up many more story telling opportunities than if it just poof came into existence.)

The EU is Europeans, practically siblings - to the point that the only reason that there is a France, Spain, Germany and other countries today is that the three sons of Charles the Great who ruled over the three territories under their father, wouldn't accept any of the other brothers above them and so it splintered apart - and the EU only forms step by little step.

Do you really think, that completely different species, some who have been antagonists for decades if not centuries, can just pound a perfectly functioning government and political entity out of the ground in a few weeks, with president and all?

Please.

I never said what was shown on Enterprise was perfect!

Anway nobody said that the founding member created the Federation in a matter of weeks, nor was that ever implied or shown! But something took these races where they put there differences aside to where they somehow created the Federation that we seen in all the ST series. Did it start out perfect? I am sure it did not, nor did I ever imply that the Federation or its founding members were. But can these races set aside there differences, make peace, and come together and create something? Sure they can! Simply take a look at the US & the Soviet Union, having The Cold War which was a period of conflict, tension and competition between these two countries and their respective allies from the mid-1940s until the early 1990s. But in a short period, peace was made between them. So if peace, cooperation, trade and other things can happen between these two countries that wanted to blow each other off the planet, then why can't 4 races from ST put aside there difference?

Again saying that Enterprise does not count and statements from other series are mistakes or that it does not jive with your interpretation is not good enough reason to disregard being so far you have not shown any real reasons to disregard any of the information except for that it does not back up your personnel opinions.

anyone disagreeing with 3DMaster should save their effort. it's a waste of time. he's locked into his mind-set and won't budge. you'd get more sense talking to a brick wall...

This is very true, but its pretty funny seeing 3DMaster going on and on without any canon information. Its almost like he is getting his ideas from a book called "Star Trek according to 3DMaster". :rommie:
 
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^^^ Two words: Multi Quote. :D

More specifically, Robjkay, don't post so many times in a row. Stick quotes of more than one person together in a single post instead. I'm going to merge your posts together (if I figure out how), but avoid doing it again.
 
^^^ Two words: Multi Quote. :D

More specifically, Robjkay, don't post so many times in a row. Stick quotes of more than one person together in a single post instead. I'm going to merge your posts together (if I figure out how), but avoid doing it again.

Is there like a rule were thats what I have to do?

Beside specifically I find it easier posting Like I have been! ;)
 
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