Constellation NCC-1017 Question

[Captain Robert April]

Shaw, thanks for this very informative information. The only thing I could add to that would be that it's *possible* that we know the Intrepid's number too, if one extrapolated from the chart in "Court Martial" that the NCC-1831 was meant to be that ship, per the dialog stating that her repairs are complete.

EXCEPT, there is no dialogue stating that.

Here's the line:

STONE: Maintenance Section Eighteen. The section is working on the Intrepid. Reschedule. The Enterprise is on priority one.

Nothing there to say that repairs are complete, only that Enterprise ranks higher on the priority chart.

As for how readable that chart is, well, here's the clearest high def pic of the numbers of that chart on trekcore.com...

Sure looks like "1831" to me. And since Okuda and his team had access to the actual footage, I'll trust his account of what's on that chart.

 

[Vance]

EXCEPT, there is no dialogue stating that.

When he says the line about Intreprid he's looking right at NCC-1631 on the chart. It's also the only ship on the chart marked as complete. (It even has the completion mark shown, though it's not in shot at the following sample

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Starbase11_chart.jpg

 

[Captain Robert April]

EXCEPT, there is no dialogue stating that.

When he says the line about Intreprid he's looking right at NCC-1631 on the chart. It's also the only ship on the chart marked as complete. (It even has the completion mark shown, though it's not in shot at the following sample

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Starbase11_chart.jpg

Second verse, same as the first, dialogue does not speak to how complete the repairs are to Intrepid.

 

[Vance]

Second verse, same as the first, dialogue does not speak to how complete the repairs are to Intrepid.

You're parsing at a fairly rediculous level. In the context of the scene, the NCC-1631 is the Intrepid. The audience is clearly supposed to make the same visual connection that the actor did in performing the scene.

Stone looks at the chart, visually fixes on the NCC-1631 one line, which is the only ship on the chart marked as 'complete'. He then makes the call for the Intrepid to be moved out of bay to hasten repairs on the Enterprise.

As much as I disagree with Okuda's handling of the TOS registry, et al, this call seems to have been the right one. I would have just had the Intrepid be another class of ship.

 

[Albertese]

Do we really know about the Republic? I recall Kirk saying, "Republic, number one three seven one," which doesn't specify a prefix. Really, then, the "NCC" is essentially speculation as well. But I might be remembering it wrong.

Well, if it's not the registry, then what is it?

...

No, you guys misunderstand. Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not suggesting that 1371 is anything other than the registry, I'm suggesting that the appellation of NCC isn't specifically stated. My point is that it's also a fan speculation, not that it isn't the registry number.

My point is that if it were some other prefix besides NCC, or for that matter no prefix at all, just "1371," it wouldn't violate the on-screen cannon. That said, it's logical enough to assume that it is NCC, seeing as how basically every other ship in Starfleet is also NCC, so no big deal that Kirk dropped it. But that would beg the question of why is it prominently painted on the hull if it's so redundant that Kirk doesn't have to say it? (I mean that rhetorically, so don't bother answering. I'm sure I could come up with a dozen explanations about why it's okay that he dropped NCC, I've been dealing in trek tech for decades too.)

--Alex

 

[Vance]

It's a little bit of a Trek anachronism, there. At the time of "Court Martial", the only registry prefix in mind was NCC. Ship #1371 was, indeed, NCC-1371 ('cause there was nothing else).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And there is the very high number XV-75847 from "errand of mercy".

I have never heard of that number. What ship was it supposed to be?

 

[Warped9]

In The Making Of Star Trek we see memos regarding a list of suggested names for starships, and at the time they do seem to be referring only to ships like the Enterprise. The memos suggest that fourteen names were chosen as suggested names for future stories, but evidently that list mightn't have been absolute since later in third season we get the Defiant, which isn't on that list. And so everyone assumes that the Defiant was a replacement for a ship previously lost.

Some years later FJ comes out with his Booklet Of General Plans that seems to have GR's blessing and all those names are listed with matching registry numbers, and from then on that's what is accepted.

But with all due respect to FJ his list may be a little too neat and tidy. Ignore if for a moment and consider. Again in TMoST there's mention that Enterprise type starships are about forty years old during TOS. If we accept that notion then the Constellation and Republic make sense because their registry numbers are so much lower than the Enterprise's.

But later in TOS we get some contradictory information. In "The Ultimate Computer" we learn Richard Daystrom designed the computer systems for the current starships, and in "Is There In Truth No Beauty" we learn that Lawrence Marvick was one of the designers of the Enterprise. That would tend to support what we learn in "The Ultimate Computer" and suggest that the current starships are only about 20-25 years old. And that could still support ships with older registries than the Enterprise.

Years later MJ said that the 17 series was meant to be significant and that it applied to the Enterprise type of starship, but that doesn't seem to gel with what we see and hear in TOS...and he is saying this years after the fact.

If I were trying to figure this out (and who hasn't?) then I'd pretty much ignore most everything post TOS and get a sense of what TOS was showing us.


That said I would have preferred to have seen an older version of the Constitution-class as the Constellation in TOS-R and keep the 1017 number. It could have been more like a WNMHGB version of the ship.

 

[blssdwlf]

And there is the very high number XV-75847 from "errand of mercy".

I have never heard of that number. What ship was it supposed to be?

Dunno. Actually I typo'd it It is "XY-75847".

The line is:

UHURA: Captain. Unit XY-75847 report a fleet of Klingon ships in their sector, sir.

It could mean a ship with registry XY-75847 or a squadron/fleet depending on how one interprets it.

 

[SchwEnt]

Oh I would certainly read "Unit XY-75847" as a fleet or squadron formation, not a single vessel. Like a WWII TF.115 (Task Force 115) or Convoy PQ-17.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Hell, it could be an automated probe for all we can tell from that line.

 

[Vance]

UHURA: Captain. Unit XY-75847 report a fleet of Klingon ships in their sector, sir.

Listening point unit? Could mean anything, honestly, from a unit of troops to a literal 'unit', like an outpost or sensor station.

But with all due respect to FJ his list may be a little too neat and tidy. Ignore if for a moment and consider. Again in TMoST there's mention that Enterprise type starships are about forty years old during TOS. If we accept that notion then the Constellation and Republic make sense because their registry numbers are so much lower than the Enterprise's.

FJ's registry scheme has a few issues (notably due to the pods later), but I never figured that the numbers were much of a problem otherwise. Remember that the registries are appropriations, not constructed vessels. This actually makes the Republic and Constellation oddities with neither really belonging in that list.

The '40 year old ship' was likely revised during the making of the original series to put her to about 25 years old. Doesn't really affect much for the ships (that's still a lot of time to make 12 like her), but it does allow for some of the 'geniuses behind the design' to be more involved in the show, as we see.

The Defiant doesn't have to be one of the original 12, or 'just like her' (Enterprise) in the least. Also, the original appropriation order for NCC-1764 may have been intended to be the USS Galina, but when laid down she was christened the USS Defiant instead.

It's all subject to interpretation anyway. I prefer neater registry schemes, myself, but, strictly speaking, there's no reason for the numbers to be in any order - so long as every registry is unique.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Second verse, same as the first, dialogue does not speak to how complete the repairs are to Intrepid.

You're parsing at a fairly rediculous level. In the context of the scene, the NCC-1631 is the Intrepid. The audience is clearly supposed to make the same visual connection that the actor did in performing the scene.

Stone looks at the chart, visually fixes on the NCC-1631 one line, which is the only ship on the chart marked as 'complete'. He then makes the call for the Intrepid to be moved out of bay to hasten repairs on the Enterprise.

As much as I disagree with Okuda's handling of the TOS registry, et al, this call seems to have been the right one. I would have just had the Intrepid be another class of ship.

Here's how I'm reading that chart:

NCC-1709
NCC-1831
NCC-1703
NCC-1672
NCC-1864
NCC-1697
NCC-1701
NCC-1718
NCC-1683
NCC-1700

 

[blssdwlf]

Hell, it could be an automated probe for all we can tell from that line.

Probably not a probe as it would have been "it's sector" instead of "their sector".

So in addition to either a ship, or a squadron/fleet of ships, it could mean a listening post or troops, etc as Vance and others have suggested.

 

[Dukhat]

Here's how I'm reading that chart:

NCC-1709
NCC-1831
NCC-1703
NCC-1672
NCC-1864
NCC-1697
NCC-1701
NCC-1718
NCC-1683
NCC-1700

9 out of 10. The number you read as 1683, I'm seeing as 1685 according to this picture. Also, NCC-1864 is the Reliant, so they can't be all Connies, unless that number is actually 1884 (or 1684..or 1664...those pesky 6s and 8s are hard to distinguish).

 

[MLJames]

You could make an argument that 1831 isn't the Intrepid at all, based on the chart. Stone's dialog orders the maintenance section working on her to be shifted over to Enterprise; if 1831's repairs are 100% complete, how many base personnel would be working on her? Seems to me that as the completion rates nudged higher into the 90s, it would make more sense to reassign techs whose jobs were done to other vessels rather than leave them sitting around Intrepid's rec rooms, drinking coffee and eating plomeek soup. It makes more sense for Intrepid to be one of the other ships on the chart, either 1703, 1709, or 1718 if you want to keep her as one of the Connies.

 

[Timo]

Exactly. Indeed, it would be logical for Stone to pick a ship whose repairs are still in their early stages; such a vessel would not yet have any set plans for relaunch and deployment that would be thrown into chaos by a delay.

The chart is quite intriguing in general. What does "% COMPLETE" mean? The Enterprise has just pulled into dock, and she's already over 80% complete! How can that be? If the dock works that fast, why move the Intrepid? The Enterprise will be 100% completed by the time Stone finishes insulting Kirk anyway!

The percentage thus probably doesn't mean the amount of work done on the ship by the dockyard, but the degree to which the ship is meeting the criteria of a fully operational vessel. That is, NCC-1701 is a bit less than 20% short of capacity due to the damage received in the storm.

But that would mean that NCC-1700 is a complete wreck, and four other starships are in a state of truly alarming disrepair as well. Does Starbase 11 specialize in hopeless cases? Is there an ongoing war with the Bugomites or Etherealoids we're not being told about?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Albertese]

Perhaps those other ships weren't wrecked by enemy action, but are undergoing major refits. Not unlike what the Enterprise herself went through between Pike's and Kirk's missions. If they were sitting in orbit without a bridge or warp engines installed, they might not be up to operational readiness status...

--Alex

 

[Vance]

You could make an argument that 1831 isn't the Intrepid at all, based on the chart. Stone's dialog orders the maintenance section working on her to be shifted over to Enterprise; if 1831's repairs are 100% complete, how many base personnel would be working on her?

Inspection, verification, et al. I took Stone's order to mean "She's ready now so get her out of the way". Like I said, since he's clearly looking at that exact line in the scene, it's really hard to interpret it in any other way.

 

[Timo]

Agreed on both the above posts. And it's really interesting to hear about the attempt to go for a second Enterprise-like shooting model for the Constellation, Shaw. It's pretty natural that the AMT kit got ultimately chosen regardless of what type or shape of ship the director or other players wanted to have - but intriguing that Jeffries himself expected to get another dead ringer for Kirk's ship, when he would apparently have been able to get any arbitrary design produced for the same price.

No sketches seem to have surfaced on "competing" Starfleet ship designs, by Jeffries or by anybody else (the original sketches on hero ship design excluded). Was there a special directive on not creating competition on the hero vessel, so that none of the artists ever did any sort of preliminary work on those, even if lesser things like the "space tramp" were sketched?

Timo Saloniemi