Consolidated Trailer Thread

[Michael]

The thing I appreciate most about TWOK is that it's essentially the first Star Trek outing to acknowledge that our heroes have aged. Where TMP more or less pretended that almost no time had passed (despite actors that were obviously older), TWOK wisely made Kirk's age one of the central issues. It really made for a fresh look on the characters.

And while I love Plummer's Chang in TUC, there simply no way he could beat Ricardo Montalban as Khan. So it's TWOK for me, too.

 

[fireproof78]

They both can quote Shakespeare with the best of them.

 

[Garth Rockett]

Really? (make no mistake I LOVE STII: TWoK); but:
"TWOK dealt with deep themes and was one of the best written movies of all time."
Hahahahahaha!

I'm sorry, but "ionsane man on a quest for revenge" is hardly deep; and Kirk saying "I've never faced death...not like this..."; is only true if you disregard some of the BEST TV episodes of TOS.

The script is far from perfect, but I think you're giving it short shrift if that's all you're focusing on, theme-wise. The revenge theme is a large part of the film, but aging, death, sacrifice, and friendship are all strong themes throughout the film. The main thing I always see in the film is the aging and death themes, even over and above the revenge theme. Certainly, that's where we begin and end the film. There's also the ethical issues raised by the nature of the Genesis device, which should not be discounted (although that theme is developed more in the next film).

As far as the "I've never faced death... not like this..." I think it's appropriate. The two deaths that would have been most impactful for Kirk in TOS were Edith Keeler, who he loved deeply but had only known for a few weeks, and his brother Sam, who might compare but we don't know exactly how close they were. On the other hand, he had a close relationship with Spock for over twenty years. Also, Spock's death was one of self-sacrifice to save the ship from a situation that Kirk was at least partly responsible for, whereas Sam was murdered in a situation out of anyone's control. I can see how Spock's death would have hit him differently than any other. YMMV.

As for STII:TWoK's other issues:

- The U.S.S. Reliant's sensors SOMEHOW fail to discern that Ceti Alpha VI BLEW up (probably left a debris field too) and shifted the orbits of the other planets in the Ceti Alpha system (Why? Because without that mistake that causes Chekov and Co. to believe Ceti Alpha V is Ceti Alpha VI Kahn would never escape to trhreaten Kirl/move the plot along.)

Agreed.

- The character of Chekov was never in "Space Seed" (a first season TOS episode. Chekov was added in TOS second season. So there's no way Kahn "never forgot his face" because Kahn never SAW it.)

Well, just because we didn't see them meet in "Space Seed doesn't mean it never happened. There's nothing onscreen to indicate exactly when Chekov came onboard the Enterprise.

- EVERYONE of Kahn's augments is younger than him and blonde. Go back and look at the 73 that were released in "Space Seed" - they're a mix of ethnicity from around the Globe. Plus with Ceti Alpha VI exploding six months after they were left there...what - every female was somehow pregnant and they all gave birth to Blonde children and died?

I generally agree, particularly about the age of the other augments in TWOK, but I will also point out that of the 73 survivors in Space Seed we don't see much more than a dozen of them; and we only see about a dozen or so of the 50 or so remaining in TWOK. The ethnic mix could have been disproportionally affected by the Ceti eel deaths, or the group as a whole wasn't as diverse as the small sample we saw in Space Seed would indicate. Regardless, this seems to be more of a casting issue than a script issue.

- I acttually also have an issue that NO OTHER ENGINEER in the Engineering Room can "Get the MAINs back online." The "Mains"weren't blown offline unexpectedly - Scotty took them offline. Hell is ANY OTHER Star Trek show - all it would have taken was the press of a few buttons on a Console - but no, ONLY Spock (because the writers and Nimoy at the time wanted this) can wade into the Engineering Room and fix the "MAINs".

Well, Scotty can't get them back online because of the radiation, which causes him to pass out as he's telling Kirk about it. He recovers after McCoy treats him, but he's not recovered before Spock has entered the chamber. Presumably, Scott wouldn't be the only one of the engineering crew affected by the radiation. Add to the fact they would be shorthanded after the casualties from the earlier attack, the lack of experience of the crew aboard (who ran at the first attack, so there's not a lot of courage in this bunch), and I can believe there wouldn't be anyone in engineering both capable and willing to do what Spock did at that time.

As far as the suggestion that they should have been able to "press a few buttons" - well, you're essentially arguing that there should have been a less dramatic solution. To me, that would have been poor writing, because the whole point of a movie like this is to make it as dramatic and exciting as possible, which IMO is where TWOK excels for all its faults.

 

[Noname Given]

As far as the "I've never faced death... not like this..." I think it's appropriate. The two deaths that would have been most impactful for Kirk in TOS were Edith Keeler, who he loved deeply but had only known for a few weeks, and his brother Sam, who might compare but we don't know exactly how close they were. On the other hand, he had a close relationship with Spock for over twenty years. Also, Spock's death was one of self-sacrifice to save the ship from a situation that Kirk was at least partly responsible for, whereas Sam was murdered in a situation out of anyone's control. I can see how Spock's death would have hit him differently than any other. YMMV.

You mention Operation: Annihilate and Kirk's brother Sam (who Kirk found dead on the colony) - but you seem to have forgotten that at one point (before they discovered the 'light' cure that killed the organisms) - that Kirk was having to contemplate ordering the deaths of 1 million colonists to prevent the organisms from spreading - anong the Spock, and his own Nephew (from a transcript of the episode):

Captain's log, stardate 3289.8. I am faced with the most difficult decision of my life. Unless we find a way to destroy the creatures without killing their human hosts, my command responsibilities will force me to kill over a million people.

KIRK: Gentlemen.

SPOCK: I regret I see no other choice for you, Captain. We already know this thing has destroyed three civilizations. Perhaps more.

MCCOY: Gentlemen, I want it stopped, too, but not at the cost of destroying over a million people.

SPOCK: Including myself, Doctor, and Captain Kirk's young nephew. Understandably upsetting, but once it spreads past here, there are dozens of colonies beyond and billions of people.

MCCOY: If killing five people saves ten, it's a bargain. Is that your simple logic, Mister Spock?

KIRK: I will accept neither of those alternatives, gentlemen. I cannot let this thing expand beyond this planet, nor do I intend to kill a million or more people to stop it. I want another answer. I'm putting you gentlemen on the hot seat with me. I want that third alternative.

^^^
Now, yes, it worked out where they found a solution that killed the organisms but didn't harm the host - BUT, here Kirk definitely faced death and did in fact contemplate and probably would have made the decision to stop the organisms if the cure had not been found.

Other episodes you're leaving out:

Conscience of the King: Kirk was one of those deemed 'worthy by Governor Kodos (aka Kodos the Executioner). I'd say that's 'facing death' - and I'm sure some of Kirk's friends were in the group deemed necessary to die so others can live. It had such an effect on him the speech he had Anton Karidian (who yes, turned out to be Kodos) read for the voice test was written from Kirk's memory - so that time he faced death had a large impact on him.

Obsession: Here we find that 11 years earlier while serving aboard the USS Farragut as a young lieutenant, Kirk and the Farragut crew encountered a Gaseous Creature The encounter killed half the Farragut crew (including Captain Garrovick, who was a hero and role model to Kirk), with Kirk and the ship's first officer among the survivors.
^^^
Again, another time where Kirk faced death and the loss of a number of comrades and a mentor/father figure he looked up to at that time. It had such an effect on him, when he encountered the same creature again, he became obsessed with killing it - and was willing to do so even if it cost others lives (the 1701 was supposed to rendezvous with another ship that had perishable medicine that was needed to stop a plague on a Federation planet.

I could list a few more examples from TOS - but yeah I found that line of Kirk's in STII:TWoK to be a bit ridiculous - still do.

Well, Scotty can't get them back online because of the radiation, which causes him to pass out as he's telling Kirk about it. He recovers after McCoy treats him, but he's not recovered before Spock has entered the chamber. Presumably, Scott wouldn't be the only one of the engineering crew affected by the radiation. Add to the fact they would be shorthanded after the casualties from the earlier attack, the lack of experience of the crew aboard (who ran at the first attack, so there's not a lot of courage in this bunch), and I can believe there wouldn't be anyone in engineering both capable and willing to do what Spock did at that time.

As far as the suggestion that they should have been able to "press a few buttons" - well, you're essentially arguing that there should have been a less dramatic solution. To me, that would have been poor writing, because the whole point of a movie like this is to make it as dramatic and exciting as possible, which IMO is where TWOK excels for all its faults.

^^^
My point is: Name me any other instance where Star Trek crewmembers were wading into radiation chamber requiring protective suits. Never happened during the run of TOS on TV - even in episodes like The Doomsday Machine (where Mr. Scott with 5 other crewmen repair the U.S.S. Constellation's Impulse Engines and Phaser Banks; Or That Which Survives which has Mr. Scott using a magnetic probe and is lying 3 feet from the active matter/anti-matter flow. You'd think they'd come up with something that didn't make it appear Starfleet technology had regressed.

Again, I DO like the film - but I still maintain the overall writing wasn't that great. But that's just my opinion. It doesn't make your's or any one else's opinion less valid - but I do think if ST:TMP hadn't been such a bad remake of TOS - The
Changeling; I think some might have viewed TWoK with a bit more of a critical eye. ST:TMP didn't really get the portrayal of the main character relationships right - and came across as very sterile (because Robert Wise was trying for a dispassionate 2001: A Space Odyssey with ST:TMP.) When the 'Big 3' interacted with each other in TWoK, it did feel like the relationships had returned to the old 'TOS vibe' and I think a lot of fans at the time (I was 19 when TWoK was out in 1982) we had something that finally felt like the TV series we all loved.

BUT - that "I've never faced death.." angle taken with James T. Kirk <--- Nope, ignores a LOT of history the character had built up in the TOS series. Kirk faced death on that level (or more) a number of times previously in his life and career. So yeah, sloppy writing on that point.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, the intermix chamber always struck me as kind of odd.

 

[BillJ]

Well, Scotty can't get them back online because of the radiation, which causes him to pass out as he's telling Kirk about it. He recovers after McCoy treats him, but he's not recovered before Spock has entered the chamber. Presumably, Scott wouldn't be the only one of the engineering crew affected by the radiation. Add to the fact they would be shorthanded after the casualties from the earlier attack, the lack of experience of the crew aboard (who ran at the first attack, so there's not a lot of courage in this bunch), and I can believe there wouldn't be anyone in engineering both capable and willing to do what Spock did at that time.

Even after radiation starts leaking, which Scotty should've known was coming. We see no one in any kind of protective gear. We see no one even attempting to suit up and head into the intermix chamber. They are all just standing around waiting to die.

Yes, they took casualties. But, every engineer on that deck should've had some kind of training on warp core. That is their job.

 

[Garth Rockett]

You mention Operation: Annihilate and Kirk's brother Sam (who Kirk found dead on the colony) - but you seem to have forgotten that at one point (before they discovered the 'light' cure that killed the organisms) - that Kirk was having to contemplate ordering the deaths of 1 million colonists to prevent the organisms from spreading - anong the Spock, and his own Nephew

I think that one falls under Kirk's line "I've cheated death" in TWOK.

Conscience of the King - I still think that's a different circumstance. Kodos killed those people, Kirk didn't have any responsibility for that like he does with Spock.

Obsession - yeah, you may have a point there. I did overlook that one. But in my defense, I hate that episode.

 

[fireproof78]

How can you hate "Obsession?" Interesting episode, in my opinion. Maybe not the best, but certainly not the worst.

 

[Garth Rockett]

I don't like how they treat Kirk's character in that episode. Our hero ignores his duty to help the people of Theta VII because he's wrapped up in his own personal vendetta. In the end, the episode attempts to bail him out with Spock asserting that "evidence" indicated the creature is going to spawn. Really, Spock? What evidence? How do we suddenly know so much about this creature as to be able to tell that it will reproduce? It just seemed like a cheap device dropped into the episode to make Kirk look less bad, when there had been no build up or suggestion of such a thing prior. Plus, they killed Mr. Leslie! Thank goodness he got better. The episode just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, although there are certainly worse episodes I could point to.

 

[BillJ]

I don't like how they treat Kirk's character in that episode. Our hero ignores his duty to help the people of Theta VII because he's wrapped up in his own personal vendetta.

He acted irrationally. He acted human. Plus, it is a threat to Federation lives which he is sworn to protect.

 

[Garth Rockett]

He acted irrationally. He acted human. Plus, it is a threat to Federation lives which he is sworn to protect.

Well, I don't have a problem at all with fallibility, but this episode takes it too far by having Kirk be pretty much in the wrong the whole episode, until they tell us (not show us) he's in the right at the end. So to me the whole thing feels unearned. As for the threat to Federation lives, that's my argument why he should have made his rendezvous for the medical supplies. The lives on Theta VII are clearly in danger. The cloud represents a potential danger to some potential people somewhere. He should be dealing with what's actually happening instead of what could maybe happen to somebody somewhere someday, if he's sworn to protect lives.

Another reason I don't like the episode is the whole "we must hunt down and kill whatever this is" attitude. It's the same problem I have with "The Man Trap", although at least that episode makes a small attempt to try to understand the salt vampire. Here there is no attempt to find a solution other than destroying the creature, which shows signs of intelligence. It may be that destroying the creature would be necessary if they couldn't get through to it, but they don't seem interested in even making the attempt. It's pretty much the opposite of "Devil in the Dark", which is my favorite TOS episode.

 

[BillJ]

Well, I don't have a problem at all with fallibility, but this episode takes it too far by having Kirk be pretty much in the wrong the whole episode, until they tell us (not show us) he's in the right at the end. So to me the whole thing feels unearned. As for the threat to Federation lives, that's my argument why he should have made his rendezvous for the medical supplies. The lives on Theta VII are clearly in danger. The cloud represents a potential danger to some potential people somewhere. He should be dealing with what's actually happening instead of what could maybe happen to somebody somewhere someday, if he's sworn to protect lives.

Another reason I don't like the episode is the whole "we must hunt down and kill whatever this is" attitude. It's the same problem I have with "The Man Trap", although at least that episode makes a small attempt to try to understand the salt vampire. Here there is no attempt to find a solution other than destroying the creature, which shows signs of intelligence. It may be that destroying the creature would be necessary if they couldn't get through to it, but they don't seem interested in even making the attempt. It's pretty much the opposite of "Devil in the Dark", which is my favorite TOS episode.

Kirk carried with him long buried guilt about what happened aboard the Farragut when he delayed firing.

And, Starfleet apparently gives it commanders a lot of leeway in deciding what is a pressing issue.

KIRK: A lot of ifs, I agree, but in my command judgment, they out weigh other factors. Intuition, however illogical, Mister Spock, is recognized as a command prerogative.

 

[fireproof78]

Kirk carried with him long buried guilt about what happened aboard the Farragut when he delayed firing.

And, Starfleet apparently gives it commanders a lot of leeway in deciding what is a pressing issue.

Guilt is not rational either. As much as I like Kirk, he is still a flawed man, and some times those flaws blind him-see "Conscience of the King" in addition to this episode.

Secondly, "Obsession" is a great episode as a companion piece to "TWOK" because Kirk basically learns from this experience.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Kirk carried with him long buried guilt about what happened aboard the Farragut when he delayed firing.

And, Starfleet apparently gives it commanders a lot of leeway in deciding what is a pressing issue.

Right. This is the core of the episode.

Kirk was worried about letting the cloud get away to take more lives; he blamed himself for doing that years ago. And it turned out that it was worse than he thought, not only with the cloud about to undergo fission into thousands of baby clouds but also with the fact that the cloud was harder to stop than he had assumed for all those years.

Although there's something, perhaps even something significant, to the observation that they did not try to communicate with the cloud hard enough, the idea that Kirk was unjustified in sacrificing lives on Theta VII to stop an established danger to Federation lives is basically spurious.

 

[shapeshifter]

Even after radiation starts leaking, which Scotty should've known was coming. We see no one in any kind of protective gear. We see no one even attempting to suit up and head into the intermix chamber. They are all just standing around waiting to die.

Yes, they took casualties. But, every engineer on that deck should've had some kind of training on warp core. That is their job.

The radiation suits weren't due back from the cleaners until Tuesday.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

Trekyards are incapable of seeing Trek outside of their very narrow idea of right and wrong. I watched their Pacific 201 videos, a fan film explicitly with a unique look and feel, essentially reimagining Star Trek, and every question was about how something was supposed to fit in with prior Trek canon.

Their Franklin videos with Sean Hargreaves can be summed up as, "Why is X when previous Trek had Y?", "X is X because I was told to put X in there, and I was doing my job." over and over

I was so excited when I first heard about Trek Yards, finally something that just talks about design! I think I got like 10 minutes into an episode; the attitude, arrogance, and single-mindedness displayed are unwatchable. I just really felt like they were the worst type of fans.

 

[Noname Given]

I think that one falls under Kirk's line "I've cheated death" in TWOK.

Conscience of the King - I still think that's a different circumstance. Kodos killed those people, Kirk didn't have any responsibility for that like he does with Spock.

Obsession - yeah, you may have a point there. I did overlook that one. But in my defense, I hate that episode.

Actually - there's another episode where Kirk faced a similar 'near death' situation and ultimately had to decide to kill a friend colleague that was as close to Kirk as Spock was to him in TWoK - and that's the second TOS pilot: Where No Man Has Gone Before
Some excerpts:

KIRK: I've been worried about you ever since that night on Deneb IV.
MITCHELL: Yeah, she was nova, that one. Not nearly as many after-effects this time, except for the eyes. They kind of stare back at me when I'm shaving.
KIRK: Do you feel any different?
MITCHELL: In a way, I feel better than I've ever felt before in my life. It actually seems to have done me some good.
KIRK: How?
MITCHELL: Well, I'm getting a chance to read some of that longhair stuff you like. Hey man, I remember you back at the academy. A stack of books with legs. The first thing I ever heard from upperclassmen was, Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk. In his class, you either think or sink.
KIRK: I wasn't that bad, was I?
MITCHELL: If I hadn't aimed that little blonde lab technician at you
KIRK: You what? You planned that?
MITCHELL: Well, you wanted me to think, didn't you? I outlined her whole campaign for her.
KIRK: I almost married her!

SPOCK: Our subject is not Gary Mitchell. Our concern is, rather, what he is mutating into.
DEHNER: I know those from your planet aren't suppose to have feelings like we do, Mister Spock, but to talk that way about a man you've worked next to for years is worse than
KIRK: That's enough, Doctor.
DEHNER: I don't think so. I understand you least of all. Gary told me that you've been friends since he joined the service, that you asked for him aboard your first command.
KIRK: It is my duty, whether pleasant or unpleasant, to listen to the reports, observations, even speculations, on any subject that might affect the safety of this vessel, and it's my science officer's duty to see I'm provided with that. Go ahead, Mister Spock.

MITCHELL: My friend James Kirk. remember those rodent things on Dimorus? The poisoned darts they threw? I took one meant for you.
KIRK: And almost died. I remember.
MITCHELL: So why be afraid of me now?
KIRK: You've been testing your ability to take over the Enterprise. In the transporter room, you said something about us seeming like insects by comparison, squashing us if we got in your way.
MITCHELL: I was drugged then.
KIRK: Yes. In the Sickbay, you said if you were in my place, you'd kill a mutant like yourself.
MITCHELL: Why don't you kill me then? Mister Spock is right and you're a fool if you can't see it.

So, yeah, I say again the Kirk line of: "I've never faced death...not like this..." in STII:TWoK is just an example of sloppy writing, neglecting a lot of the established history of the character for a dramatic moment. It's a good and touching dramatic moment, but the line was BS.

 

[Galaxy]

The thing I appreciate most about TWOK is that it's essentially the first Star Trek outing to acknowledge that our heroes have aged. Where TMP more or less pretended that almost no time had passed (despite actors that were obviously older), TWOK wisely made Kirk's age one of the central issues. It really made for a fresh look on the characters.

Well between TOS Season 3 and TMP in In Universe about 3 years have passed, more passed in real life. The time frame between TMP, and TWOK is more ambiguous, but it is generally assumed that Kirk commanded at minimum one more 5 year Mission after that.

 

[Qonundrum]

B+ or A-.

Good setup.

Good crew.

Saw nothing of white genocide that some where somehow envisioning.

Liked the moral play on whether or not they should fire first.

The dude who talks of sensing death was intriguing, though a bit simplistic. A species bred solely to detect impending death? There's got to be more going on.

What's wrong with anybody's accent? Everyone brought a decent cadence to the show.

I'm going for some leeway with outfits, Klingon make-up, consoles, handheld technology, and set designs: The console visuals are just not going to match stuff made 50 years ago. Just roll with it and let the plot and actors do their job to carry the show; in 50 years' time the next Trek will make DSC look cheap as well. The blue outfits are still "meh" but if that's the only nitpick from the teaser...

If the show matches up to the feel the teaser put out, IMHO, they have a winner. DSC feels fresh and new and feels as if they're going to cover human condition stuff, questioning things, and so on.

I'm even tempted to do the CBS subscription, that's how much I'm intrigued; I usually wait for whole seasons to come out on home video to be properly disappointed or for local networks tune in every week. And being on the streaming service, CBS would have to make a real belter of a show to get people to sign up. It's a gamble, compared to regular weekly broadcasts that would more likely maintain audiences since it's ultimately less cost to the audience.

 

[Qonundrum]

Their outfits don't look Starfleet at all. I wonder if they're going undercover. So is this Vulcan, Nimbus III, or some other never before seen planet?

Given the general dislike of STV:TFF, I don't think Nimbus 3 will be given a nod.

But what do I know, Star Wars The Farce Awakens managed to throw in (or up) enough references to the prequels despite everyone hating those...