Consider this about Kirk's promotion...

[theFirebottle]

In the novelization, it says that Sulu has a doctorate in astrophysics. I think it was a hiccup of fate that he forgot to take off the parking brake.

The man was nervous and the ship was brand new! He'd probably only just barely gotten checked out on her control systems.

Plus, it was an awesome throwback/turnabout to the Excelsior. Polycosmic justice, if you will.

 

[Jeri]

Firebottle, Excelsior. Yeah, it was...and damned lucky, or they would have been toasted with the other seven ships.

 

[Islander]

Plus, it was an awesome throwback/turnabout to the Excelsior. Polycosmic justice, if you will.

Not just that. Sulu always was a little bit clumsy. Remember the look on his face when accidentally started the wipers on the chopper in TVH.

 

[DontFeedPhil]

I think alot of people are forgetting a key fact. The fact that Jim Kirk wasn't just a "cadet" that was promoted to Captain cause he did something heroic. He was most likely in a "Officer Pool" Because of the fact that his aptitute scores were waay off the chart. Meaning that he was in training for a Captains chair or some other officer post.
Other people like Uhura...Chekov, or even Sulu would most likely Never be promoted to Captain of any ship because they werent Officer material...
It works pretty much the same way today in the US Army. If an average Joe-Six-Pack walked into a recruiting office with low ASVAB scores and said he wanted to be a Captain of a Aircraft Carrier they'd say sure...just sign on the dotted line and you'll be on the front lines as a grunt in 2 weeks...And no matter what he did in Iraq he'd Never be a Captain of anything in the military. But on the other hand if someone like Kirk walked into that same office and had Exceptional ASVAB scores and said he wanted to Captain that same Aircraft Carrier he'd be shuffeled off to some kind of Officer School.
Thats why its not that improbable for him to make Captain.

 

[J.T.B.]

J.T.B., defeating Nero and saving the planet is in a class by itself. There is no comparison to working up the ranks. There is no comparison to commanding a warship today.

Of course there is a comparison. The achievement of saving the world has nothing to do with the practical matters of running a ship. If a US Navy ensign saved the world would that make him qualified to command an aircraft carrier?

Kirk proved he could command a starship and more. There is no comparison between saving the planet and anything on earth in our experience.

In that short period he did not have to deal with personnel issues, long-term planning, maintenance schedules or any of the countless headaches of a CO's life. So no, he really didn't prove he could command a starship for more than a brief period. There is more to the job than just action scenes.

A lot of people still seem to consider military rank as some kind of honor. It is not. A person's grade reflects their career attainments and experience in progressively more responsible positions. Honors for heroism, outstanding service and so on are handled by Medals of Honor, Victoria Crosses &c. There are good reasons why the two functions are not combined.

I don't really care to die in the last ditch over this issue, and if you find it realistic more power to you, but it certainly did un-suspended my disbelief.

But on the other hand if someone like Kirk walked into that same office and had Exceptional ASVAB scores and said he wanted to Captain that same Aircraft Carrier he'd be shuffeled off to some kind of Officer School.

And if he was very good he could actually become an aircraft carrier captain, in about twenty years.

--Justin

 

[theFirebottle]

I'm gonna bring this up again because it keeps getting buried in the arguments.

The editing deliberately leaves the timing of the last few scenes of the movie vague. While it is true that everyone in the promotion scene is wearing academy clothes, it's also true that there are almost no empty seats in the audience despite Kirk's graduating class suffering heavy losses, and it's also true that Captain Pike looks mostly healed from his ordeal of torture and the major surgery required to extract the slug from his brain. Lastly, the Enterprise is all fixed up in the very last scene despite having been heavily damaged by the gravitational forces of the singularity.

The weight of the evidence points to a lengthy off-screen gap between "Kirk saved the planet!" and "Kirk gets promoted!"

And again, there could be a lot going on here beyond merely rewarding Kirk for saving the planet and promoting Pike out of the way. Starfleet lost seven ships at Vulcan and their full crew complements. They were already aching for personnel before that, since Pike was picking up recruits from barroom brawls. The Federation, having lost one of its founding members, is now in perpetual and irreparable crisis. Starfleet may have no choice but to promote inexperienced kids into positions they may not be suited for. I bet Kirk's and Pike's promotions are just the tip of the iceberg and lots of people are seeing their careers go zooming off in directions they never expected.

 

[Praetor]

I'd like to take Pike's TMP-ish uniform to indicate that indeed a surprising amount of time had passed and Commander Kirk was being promoted to Captain finally after, say, seven years.

 

[Norrin Radd]

No more than a few months had passed at the end.

It's true we don't know exactly.

But just about everything, including the pacing of the film, points towards Kirk receving the captaincy pretty soon after the fight with Nero.

Pike in a wheelchair being the major clue.

 

[Lt. Trull]

here's what happened....

Spock prime mind melded with the entire vulkan science council. He shared knowledge that he had about: kirk, spock, the universe he's from and what's shoulda happened.

The vulkan science council leaned on the federation to make kirk captain.

 

[Jeri]

J.T.B., there is no comparison. A Navy ensign could not save the world with an aircraft carrier. We've never seen a deed of this magnitude. It's a matter of scale.

Kirk clearly can command a starship for the purpose it was intended. If being its captain was what he wanted to do, then for saving the world, the fleet would make sure he had all the executive officers, accountants, engineers and supply clerks that it takes. I don't think it would be any more than normal, personally.

In all of TOS, Kirk had no duties that this Kirk could not perform.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

J.T.B., there is no comparison. A Navy ensign could not save the world with an aircraft carrier.

But if for some reason, one did, what would you suggest the Navy do with him/her? Promote them to Admiral of the Fleet?

There have been instances of one person, or two, doing a deed of this magnitude. Google the name 'Stanislav Petrov', for example.

I'm mellowing a bit on this whole Kirk thing. For a few reasons:

- Kirk wasn't a cadet, he was a Lieutenant. He was, technically, graduated, but this was held up because of the cheating thing. I believe this is made clearer in the novelization. Also, in TOS, Kirk graduated with that rank as well.

- Spock Prime was very insistent that Kirk should be captain, even though it's 2258 and I doubt Kirk of the prime timeline was captain by then. In any case, Spock probably imparted a fair amount of command knowledge via his mind meld.

- I never considered Admiral Pike's role in this. If Kirk's rapid rise to the captaincy was Pike's idea, I'm cool with that, I guess. Pike knows Kirk better than anyone. If Pike thinks Kirk should be captain, I trust that judgment.

 

[Praetor]

No more than a few months had passed at the end.

It's true we don't know exactly.

But just about everything, including the pacing of the film, points towards Kirk receving the captaincy pretty soon after the fight with Nero.

Pike in a wheelchair being the major clue.

I know.

I said "I'd like to."

 

[Sabataage]

I hope that's part of Kirk's story in the next one, the idea that he had achieved too much too early (he saved Earth!) and promoted too quickly without enough real world experience. Throw in a little Ender's Game to the mix. Have older, more experienced officers who've been busting their ass and paying their dues for years trying to get the big chair truly revile Kirk for being so young and undeserving. And then he, of course, proves them wrong. Because, you know, he's James T. Kirk.

 

[Omega_Glory]

Irregardless the skill and imagination he showed in this film, being a regular commander of a ship requires one thing you can't get from books or simulation.......experience. JJ screwed the pooch on this one, pure and simple.

 

[Peter the Younger]

I hope that's part of Kirk's story in the next one, the idea that he had achieved too much too early (he saved Earth!) and promoted too quickly without enough real world experience. Throw in a little Ender's Game to the mix. Have older, more experienced officers who've been busting their ass and paying their dues for years trying to get the big chair truly revile Kirk for being so young and undeserving. And then he, of course, proves them wrong. Because, you know, he's James T. Kirk.

I would also like to see this, actually. At least acknowledge that this is a super unusual thing that is going to create resentment and "WTF?" looks in some circles.

 

[Qonos]

I hope that's part of Kirk's story in the next one, the idea that he had achieved too much too early (he saved Earth!) and promoted too quickly without enough real world experience. Throw in a little Ender's Game to the mix. Have older, more experienced officers who've been busting their ass and paying their dues for years trying to get the big chair truly revile Kirk for being so young and undeserving. And then he, of course, proves them wrong. Because, you know, he's James T. Kirk.

I would also like to see this, actually. At least acknowledge that this is a super unusual thing that is going to create resentment and "WTF?" looks in some circles.

Remember everyone to much reality in your fantasy leads to boring fantasy.. Which is what Science Fiction is, Fantasy with a dose of science mixed in. K.

 

[donners22]

In all of TOS, Kirk had no duties that this Kirk could not perform.

We have not even seen how he manages a crew or handles diplomacy - particularly in a first contact situation. Rather crucial parts of a captain's role. How about his battle tactics? Does he know about corbomite?

 

[Peter the Younger]

I hope that's part of Kirk's story in the next one, the idea that he had achieved too much too early (he saved Earth!) and promoted too quickly without enough real world experience. Throw in a little Ender's Game to the mix. Have older, more experienced officers who've been busting their ass and paying their dues for years trying to get the big chair truly revile Kirk for being so young and undeserving. And then he, of course, proves them wrong. Because, you know, he's James T. Kirk.

I would also like to see this, actually. At least acknowledge that this is a super unusual thing that is going to create resentment and "WTF?" looks in some circles.

Remember everyone to much reality in your fantasy leads to boring fantasy.. Which is what Science Fiction is, Fantasy with a dose of science mixed in. K.

Oh I agree wholeheartedly with this. I'm not talking about a throwaway reference, I'm thinking this is something you could hang some character's personality on: the senior officer or rival captain who resents Kirk, Kirk having doubts about himself (maybe I was promoted too soon, I can't live up to this.) Despite his confidence, Kirk did have moments of doubt in TOS, and they frequently made for good drama.

 

[Jeri]

Babaganoosh, the naval case is not going to happen. And we have to keep ourselves from blowing ourselves up everywhere every day.

If a 25-year-old student prevented an asteroid from extinguishing 90% of species on Earth, then everybody would be happy for him to have his dream job. They would insist on it, since he's good at it, and we need him. Even the guys who had been working in his field all their lives.

donners22, yeah...I watched TOS on NBC since 1966, so I was there. I don't have any problem imagining this Kirk stepping into those shoes.

I like Sabataage's idea, too. The TOS Kirk had a few years on this Kirk. He gets to make them up.

 

[Overgeeked]

Cakes488, Pike was assigned the USS Kelvin as a dissertation topic, not a lightning storm in space as the topic.

Pike had already been told that Vulcan was having a natural catastrophe, and no one ever connected the lightning storm to a natural catastrophe.

In fact, the lightning storm may not have been firmly connected with the massive Romulan ship as a cause. No Romulan ship was included in the communique from Vulcan that Admiral Barnett read.

Now come on, that's completely disingenuous. Pike's "assigned" the USS Kelvin for his dissertation, but somehow, magically, because he's not assigned the lightning storm in space he has no knowledge of it even though THE SHIP THAT DESTROYED THE KEVLIN CAME OUT A THE FRAKKING LIGHTNING STORM IN SPACE.

That's intentionally bending over backwards, putting on blinders, and ignoring what's on the screen to avoid seeing what's right in front of you.