Complaints about humanizing Spock

[JRoss]

I read it here that Spock would not have become as iconic as he did, should he have displayed "humanness" in TOS, as he did in ST. I posit that he displayed a remarkably human personality in TOS.

Consider:

1. All those times he became visibly annoyed at Bones or Kirk.

2. The end of Requiem for Methuselah.

3. Spock's reaction to Kirk surviving their duel.

Contrast with:

1. Tuvok. The man did show some emotion, as most Vulcans would, such as apprehension, gratitude and annoyance. However, Tuvok was far more Vulcan than Spock, and his performance is not as cherished as Nimoy's.

Also see:

1. Sarek. The epitome of Vulcans. Remember how in "Sarek" he confessed that he loved Spock's mother? Or how he became upset with Kirk for letting Spock rot on Genesis? Marc Lenard gives the finest Vulcan performance in all Trek.

Thus, I feel that showing both sides of Spock's nature deepens the character.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The allure of Spock is that he's an emotional guy who keeps himself under strict control. On that level everyone can relate to him, because at one time or another everyone has struggled with their emotions.

Spock seemed more emotional in STXI because his entire story (his early struggles from "Yesteryear", living among humans in TOS and finally his acceptance of self in TMP) was retold from scratch in 2 hours.

I thought Zachary Quinto did a brilliant job as a younger, edgier Spock.

 

[ClawsThatCatch]

My main complaint isn't that Spock displays emotions, it's that Spock's emotions cause him to behave in a manner completely unbefitting of a starfleet officer, much less a captain.

When in Star Trek history has anyone ever been thrown off of a starship, much less a first officer, much less on a dangerous ice planet? Every time I watch this movie I get angry at Spock's behavior. I can at least conceive of Kirk doing something stupid like this, but Spock? Kirk almost died like 3 times only minutes after getting out of his pod on the ice planet. What was Spock going to tell the Federation later had Kirk not been so lucky? "Sorry! You see, I caused the death of Kirk because he threatened my authority. I could have thrown him in the brig, but I was in a really bad mood"?

 

[F. King Daniel]

His mother had just been murdered and his entire planet had been destroyed! Of course he's not gonna be himself after that. In fact it was his impared judgement as a result which is why Kirk had to take command - Spock was robotically following Pike's last orders to meet up with the fleet, which would have doomed Earth. As Spock Prime said about his younger self "Jim, I just lost my planet. I can tell you, I am emotionally compromised."

(and FWIW, one of the first New Frontier novels from the early 90's states that abandoning stowaways in escape pods is actually an allowed, if extreme, course of action)

 

[Jeyl]

Well, this movie has too many humans in it already, so +1 to the "humanizing Spock isn't such a good idea" party. Spock is best when he's not fixated on his human side.

I mean, sure he's half human, but outside of certain episodes, you can classify Spock as a pure blooded Vulcan and there would be nothing in that story to contradict it, even when that very element comes into play!

Decker: You're bluffing.
Spock: Vulcans never bluff.
Decker. No, I suppose they don't.

You think anyone who would know that he's half human would consider that a valid argument?

 

[ClawsThatCatch]

His mother had just been murdered and his entire planet had been destroyed! Of course he's not gonna be himself after that. In fact it was his impared judgement as a result which is why Kirk had to take command - Spock was robotically following Pike's last orders to meet up with the fleet, which would have doomed Earth. As Spock Prime said about his younger self "Jim, I just lost my planet. I can tell you, I am emotionally compromised."

(and FWIW, one of the first New Frontier novels from the early 90's states that abandoning stowaways in escape pods is actually an allowed, if extreme, course of action)

I know people who are familiar with Star Trek
can rationalize this behavior away as him having lost his planet and his mother and etc. But, what worries me is that I saw the movie with a guy who knew nothing about Star Trek and one of his first questions was, "Is Spock so emotional all the time in the series too? He's so whiney."

And you know, Spock's my favorite character, so it hurt me that there are people who are going to watch this movie and see Spock as a whiney, emotional guy who is somehow more concerned with strict adherence to rules than he is about ethics. Which is just about the exact opposite of his behavior on tos.

And, ok, let's assume for a second that in the Star Trek universe the captain has the right to maroon stowaways. First off, though you can kind of argue that Kirk was on the ship against orders in the beginning, he was made first officer. I think any claim that he was a stowaway was made invalid by that action. Second off, even if completely legal, legal does not translate as ethical. Spock's action almost murdered Kirk and just for disagreeing with him and being a little aggressive with the redshirts.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

That's funny, I interpreted Spock's ruthless and slightly-murderous command to toss Pine off the ship and into possible danger as coming from his Vulcan side. Remember, Vulcans are more emotional than humans and their ruthlessness comes through every so often. They're really not terribly different from Romulans, deep down.

 

[Gojira]

I do view Spock as an archetype of our human struggle to balance emotion with reason. But I also think Spock, as originally played by Leonard Nimoy in the 60s came at a time when there was a stronger injunction toward men to not show emotions. 40 years or more later our culture is different and we're now hopefully more at ease with displaying emotions so I think that cultural message will be manifested in actors portrayals of Vulcans.

 

[Devon]

OP is right. I didn't see any "humanizing" of Spock and think that this claim has long run its course by now.

And you know, Spock's my favorite character, so it hurt me that there are people who are going to watch this movie and see Spock as a whiney, emotional guy

People are going to see different characters as anything they want to, starting from TOS and on. I'm sure this movie isn't the first movie to have made someone out there think that about Spock, and I'm sure a couple of people out there probably thought worse of the old Spock.

Which is just about the exact opposite of his behavior on tos.

Spock was a bit older and had more time to figure things out by the time of TOS too, which is why the comparisons are going to favor TOS Spock.

 

[ClawsThatCatch]

People are going to see different characters as anything they want to, starting from TOS and on. I'm sure this movie isn't the first movie to have made someone out there think that about Spock, and I'm sure a couple of people out there probably thought worse of the old Spock.

I realize it's an anecdotal example, and so it's easy to dismiss my experience as just being the opinion of one person. Unfortunately, I don't have any broad statistics or figures to provide evidence to my claim that this movie makes Spock come off worse to audiences in general than Spock comes off in other films. And yet, I still stand by my claim.

Which is just about the exact opposite of his behavior on tos.

Spock was a bit older and had more time to figure things out by the time of TOS too, which is why the comparisons are going to favor TOS Spock.

I realize he was younger, and I can see that as an explanation for him acting a little immature. However, this isn't just immature behavior. It's outright immoral behavior.

 

[Kelso]

They had Spock weeping for his mommy in the fourth broadcast episode of TOS for a reason. People who complain about Spock being "humanized" are missing the point of the character.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Exactly so, Mr. Kelso.

 

[shapeshifter]

I don't believe what we saw with Spock is intended to be a finished product.

What we saw was an imagineering of Spock from The Cage. Please just think for a minute how that episode steered the development of this earlier than TOS Spock. Go watch it... He's all shouting and emotional. It is no stretch to think he may have been doing many 'out of character' things we were not privy to see. Whose to say he wasn't snogging Uhura in the Prime Universe at that time? You can't, no one can, and that's why [I believe] they did it.

The journey for us is going to be watching him, (and all the crew) change & grow more towards the characters we know.

 

[ClawsThatCatch]

They had Spock weeping for his mommy in the fourth broadcast episode of TOS for a reason. People who complain about Spock being "humanized" are missing the point of the character.

I'm unsure if this comment was directed toward me, but I feel like I should state for the record that I realize vulcans have emotions and that their ancestors were very emotional and brutal.

But, in modern times vulcans work very hard to keep these emotions under control, and it seems to me that Gene Roddenberry purposely made Spock the ethical center to the show. There are multiple examples of times when Spock suggested a course of action and Kirk ignored him, only to later realize that Spock's suggestion was the more ethical/logical.

For example, in "Arena" when Spock doesn't want to fire on the Gorn ship until they know more about what's going on. Then Kirk ignores Spock. Then the outsider god-entities intervene and help teach Kirk a lesson about mercy and understanding over brutality, and Kirk sees Spock's initial point about concern for sentient life.

I think vulcans were supposed to be like an ideal for humans to look up to. Not perfect, but they're stronger physically and mentally and, in modern times, have almost perfect control over their emotions. Yeah, a few times Spock shows his emotional side, but there's most often a reason like a weird disease or an alien force. Point in short, vulcans aren't supposed to be endangering people's lives for no reason.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

In this case, Spock was younger than we've seen previously and should be less in control of himself than we've seen from Nimoy's Spock. Also, his planet had been blown up and his mother killed right in front of him, minutes previously. I think they hit the emotion-logic balance just right given the circumstances. No doubt in the next movie, we'll see more of the controlled, snarky Spock.

 

[Sector 7]

I do not think the excuse of Spock just lost his mother and planet is completely accurate. Spock is acting 'out of character' by having a relationship with one of his students, namely Uhura. He even hides this fact from others and is concerned about appearances, to the point he places Uhura on a different ship from him.

Spock openly making out with Uhura on the transporter pad is also 'out of character' as TOS Spock would never do such a thing unless under a powerful alien influence.

Place me in the camp labeled "Emo Spock is out of character in ST09".

 

[JRoss]

I'm really enjoying this interchange. It seems to be one of the more intelligently-argued debates about movie 11, from both sides. I'm looking forward to seeing Quinto portray Spock, as he becomes the man we've all seen.

 

[Kelso]

I'm unsure if this comment was directed toward me

It wasn't. Well, not specifically.

I think Vulcans were supposed to be like an ideal for humans to look up to.

The Vulcans were complete assholes. Every one of them. Nothing about being Vulcan was portrayed as ideal.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I do not think the excuse of Spock just lost his mother and planet is completely accurate. Spock is acting 'out of character' by having a relationship with one of his students, namely Uhura. He even hides this fact from others and is concerned about appearances, to the point he places Uhura on a different ship from him.

Spock openly making out with Uhura on the transporter pad is also 'out of character' as TOS Spock would never do such a thing unless under a powerful alien influence.

Place me in the camp labeled "Emo Spock is out of character in ST09".

This is the first time we've seen Spock in a serious romantic relationship, so there's no way to know what's in character for him. It's a new situation. I think they're handling it plausibly. It's unclear what Starfleet's rules are regarding fraternization within the ranks but in TOS, there didn't seem to be massive hang-ups about it.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Every time we see Spock in full Vulcan mode he nust be shown to be in the wrong (Galileo 7, Amok Time, XI, etc) When he allowes himself to express his human emotions he's showing the superiority of emotion over logic. Humans must be shown the be the best of the other races since they are simply elements of the whole humanity encompases (klingons - anger, vulcans - logic, etc).