Complaints about humanizing Spock

[Decker]

Anticizen: It's not just the pilot. The "Wait a moment, did you just let your human half get the better of you?" thing between Kirk and Spock with the latter eventually always talking himself out of it is a motif present in all of TOS. A nice example would be the end of "The Galileo Seven".
There's oh-so-many instances where Kirk just can't help but smile to himself when noticing something resembling an "emotion" in Spock.

I'm not a real defender of Abram's Trek, but considering this point, it's only TOO natural for Spock not to be in control at a young age. After all that's why he was given that background right from the beginning. Why go through the motions of establishing him being of mixed blood right in "Where No Man..." if you don't have the intention of creating a conflicted character. Most of the deep friendship between Spock and Kirk is built on this "failure" on Spock's side.
His emotional instability is the very reason why he couldn't achieve kolinahr. In case it's not clear enough in the movie (should be though), try the novel (by Roddenberry himself nonetheless).

Spoiler: Kolinahr

Until this very morning, Spock had been certain that he had finally and fully exorcised his human half and its shameful emotional legacies. An hour before the rising of the Vulcan suns, Spock had made his way to the high promontory he had chosen as his own and there he had greeted the red dawn of this important day with mind-cleansing meditation. He had known that today he would face T'sai herself and that the High Master would invite him to enter with her into mindmeld so that she might place around his neck the old symbol which proclaimed his mastery of Kolinahr. In searching his consciousness this morning, Spock had been especially alert for any trace of pride in his accomplishments here in Gol.

[...]

Most shocking of all, it had frightened Spock. On the morning of the very day that he was to be pronounced free of emotion, he had felt...fear. Fear, not so much for himself, but for Earth and for those Earth humans whom he had known for so long and so well.

How was it possible that he felt this? Not only was fear indisputably an emotion, how could he feel that emotion for a planet and a people which he had already exorcised from his consciousness and from his life!

[...]

Forget Earth; think only of Vulcan. You were born here of a Vulcan father, raised here as a Vulcan son . . . and Vulcan children, like children everywhere, can be unthinkingly cruel. Strange, I have never been aware until now that it was my boyhood on Vulcan which had ultimately driven me into Starfleet. I had to prove to myself that those times of tears and laughter had been only a child's errors. It was to prove my mastery over myself that I went out among humans and defied them to make me less Vulcan than I am.

But what was it that Jim Kirk had once said? “Spock, why fight so hard to be a part of only one world? Why not fight instead to be the best of both?”

[...]

...and then again he felt fear! And he felt shame too. As if struck by a bolt from an unseen ambush, Spock knew in this instant that the human half of him was far from extinguished. That half had simply been capable of human guile and had learned to hide itself even from his own notice. He had foolishly and carelessly underestimated it and believed it to be gone. But like the enemy it had always been, his human half had merely lain in wait in order to assault him while he was defenseless.

[...]

“Your answer lies elsewhere, Spock.”

There's a number of other backstories in '09's Trek that are either only assumptions on the screenwriter's part or newly made up things and thus questionable. But here I fail to see the problem.

Once they've made the sale and been greenlighted, things change.

That is indeed true, and the same goes for Trek. When Devon talks of a "gleeful" Spock, it's because in "The Cage" Spock's emotionlessness hadn't been decided on yet. So in that regard, (at least) the first pilot should not be considered canon. Sure one could try to explain it in-story and pin the difference in Nimoy's line delivery or his shouting on Spock's inexperience.

In any case, although Spock's lack of emotion is talked about to some length in "Where No Man...", "The Corbomite Maneuver" is the first episode where we have him talk in a rather calm and composed manner.

 

[UFO]

In fact it was his impared judgement as a result which is why Kirk had to take command - Spock was robotically following Pike's last orders to meet up with the fleet, which would have doomed Earth.

Actually, I don't think Spock was showing impaired judgement. At that point, meeting up with the fleet would be the rational call. If Kirk had won that argument, and didn't get spaced to Delta Vega, he never would've met Scotty and Spock and picked up the long-distance beaming trick that they used to defeat the Narada. The Enterprise would've been warped right to Earth, and would've been summarily destroyed, along with Earth.

Therefore, a rendevous with the fleet was the reasonable choice. It's only by wild coincidence that Spaced-Kirk was able to get what he needed in order to defeat the Narada. Just another example of a ridiculous, convoluted plot.

To quote Kelso: "Pretty much, yeah.". But thanks for being the one to point that out on this occasion. People will still ignore that point if it proves expedient, but be assured you are fighting in a noble cause!

I think in ST09, the writers are trying to explore more of Spock's humaness and the struggle to keep that "hidden" for lack of a better term.

I wouldn't mind if he struggled a little harder.

I addressed that as an excuse in the post immediately preceding yours.

We know from Spock over the years that the younger he was the less in control his character was.

I am unaware we know that. Sure you can stick religiously to canon I suppose, but the first pilot did not portray the same Spock and would never have been aired in any form if not for scheduling problems, I understand. The second pilot had one scene when he kind of smirks, but nothing like that is seen again so clearly they realised it didn’t make sense for him to behave that way.

... only to be described as the "most human."

By a human! At his funeral! After just saving all their lives! Besides, he was already being "humanised" by that time so calling him human is no longer an "insult" apparently.

The accusations that they "emotionlized Spock," while generally being over-dramatized for an attempt to slam the film …

Oh of course, that explains it, it’s all about "slamming the film". Or perhaps its just that people didn’t like what they did to the Spock character?

… is often overlooked by the fact that a younger Spock, especially one who under the circumstances that were presented by the film, actually should act the way he does and there is nothing out of the ordinary.

For a human. Personally I would imagine Spock, straight out of Vulcan behavioural training school, would be at his least emotional, outwardly at least. Despite giving the finger to the Vulcan Science Academy, I should think the last thing he would do is give them the satisfaction of being proved right by going all native. But that's just my theory.

As for evidence that his behaviour is out of character, how about McCoy’s comments to Spock at the end of Requiem for Methuselah:

You see, I feel sorrier for you than I do for him because you'll never know the things that love can drive a man to. The ecstasies, the miseries, the broken rules, the desperate chances, the glorious failures, the glorious victories. All of these things you'll never know simply because the word love isn't written into your book.

Spock certainly didn’t contradict him. Almost makes you think Vulcans don’t even have emotions doesn’t it?

The simple issue here is not that Spock shouldn't be portrayed the way he was, it's just some people saw a couple of sides of him they weren't aware could exist or they hoped couldn't exist, although history shows us differently.

I think that's still debatable, but if you are right we should see Spock becoming more logical and unemotional as time goes on only to slip back down the human slope again to the point that one day he will come across as someone's grandfather.

The "Wait a moment, did you just let your human half get the better of you?"

I see your point, it was kind of a running gag. But that could be put down to Kirk etc having a friendly pot-shot at him without demonstrating Spock was actually doing that. Re "The Galileo Seven", Spock’s acceptance of Kirks explanation of his behaviour is after all quite logical.

Thanks for that excerpt from the novelisation.
I was struck by the following:

"Most shocking of all, it had frightened Spock. On the morning of the very day that he was to be pronounced free of emotion, he had felt...fear. Fear, not so much for himself, but for Earth and for those Earth humans whom he had known for so long and so well. How was it possible that he felt this?"

Surely this implies Vulcans are supposed to get to a state where they don’t even feel emotions?

But here I fail to see the problem.

I think the problem for me at least, is not that Spock should be completely without emotion or at least emotional displays, but that he shouldn't indulge them as humans do and certainly shouldn't be encouraged to do so by others. Especially given, as others point out, the implications of that. Under such circumstances, how do we know Spock will become the person we see in TOS?

 

[Decker]

Thanks for that excerpt from the novelisation.

It's from Chapter 2. The novelization itself is pretty close to the film and, although quite short, gives a little more insight on stuff. We don't get AS much in the scene.

I think the problem for me at least, is not that Spock should be completely without emotion or at least emotional displays, but that he shouldn't indulge them as humans do and certainly shouldn't be encouraged to do so by others. Especially given, as others point out, the implications of that. Under such circumstances, how do we know Spock will become the person we see in TOS?

That's absolutely right. How he will become that? Well, I guess that's what Abrams tried to delve into, didn't he?
With "failing to see a problem" I meant Anticitizen's.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Spock was the only Vulcan in AmokTime suffering from Pon'Farr. The others were perfectly fine, health wise. Even T'Pring showed no signs of "her blood boiling".

Nor did Stonn, and T'Pau was just a jerk.

We were never shown anything in TOS, and darned little since, to suggest that these folks weren't representative of the Vulcan social elite. I know that bugs some trekkies, but it's a fact.

 

[Franklin]

I disagree. I think there is evidence that both tpring and stonn were under ponnfarr

There is no such evidence.

For what it's worth, there's no evidence that anyone in the ceremony other than Spock would even have to be under the effects of pon farr, including T'Pring. Indeed, it would make sense that in their cooler states of mind, T'Pring and Stonn were able to take advantage of Spock.

FWIW, I always thought that TOS [SPOCK] was the most emotional guy on the whole ship.

All three characters, Kirk, Spock, and McCoy seemed equally emotional, to an extent. The thing was all three dealt with their emotions differently and with different effects. Kirk was comfortable with his emotions and using them to balance and temper his intellect. McCoy wore his heart on his sleeve. Spock relied on pure intellect and restrained or repressed his emotions, which was probably the least healthy way to deal with them.
Over time, I think Spock (maybe because of Kirk and McCoy) became conflicted between the usefulness of emotions and the call to pure intellect. Maybe with occasional raging eruptions of emotion, perhaps with some experimentation along the way, eventually he becomes able to live more comfortably with his emotions, becoming more balanced and temperate (like Kirk) as he aged. (I'm talking about the progression of the character from the earliest TOS all the way to his appearances on TNG and ST09.)

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

For what it's worth, there's no evidence that anyone in the ceremony other than Spock would even have to be under the effects of pon farr, including T'Pring. Indeed, it would make sense that in their cooler states of mind, T'Pring and Stonn were able to take advantage of Spock.

Indeed; what little evidence there is in the episode underscores that Spock and only Spock was in "pon farr."

 

[Kelso]

^ Right. Spock was the only person present who looked ready to eat his own thumbs.

 

[Franklin]

^ Right. Spock was the only person present who looked ready to eat his own thumbs.

Can you imagine if they had all been in Spock's state? It would've been either the Vulcan version of a Roman orgy or gladiator battle. Or both.

 

[ClawsThatCatch]

I think it's crazy that you guys don't see that, at minimum, Stonn was under ponfarr.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why would be be at Pon Farr. What are the chances he would be ready to mate at the same time as Spock? And if he was wouldn't he be at his own family's mating spot with the woman he wad bonded to?

 

[Devon]

I am unaware we know that. Sure you can stick religiously to canon I suppose, but the first pilot did not portray the same Spock and would never have been aired in any form if not for scheduling problems, I understand. The second pilot had one scene when he kind of smirks, but nothing like that is seen again so clearly they realised it didn’t make sense for him to behave that way.

Yet he still does in two canon episodes, which we know at least one is significantly earlier timeline wise than the other.

Oh of course, that explains it, it’s all about "slamming the film".

Usually, yes.

Or perhaps its just that people didn’t like what they did to the Spock character?

Some didn't, but can't please everyone.

For a human.

For him. He's as much human as he is Vulcan.

Spock certainly didn’t contradict him. Almost makes you think Vulcans don’t even have emotions doesn’t it?

Which they do, of course. If they didn't have emotions there wouldn't anything for them to suppress.

I think that's still debatable, but if you are right we should see Spock becoming more logical and unemotional as time goes on only to slip back down the human slope again.

Yes.

 

[Kelso]

^ Right. Spock was the only person present who looked ready to eat his own thumbs.

Can you imagine if they had all been in Spock's state? It would've been either the Vulcan version of a Roman orgy or gladiator battle. Or both.

I'd watch that. Well, as long as Celia Lovsky stayed out of it.

 

[UFO]

I am unaware we know that. Sure you can stick religiously to canon I suppose, but the first pilot did not portray the same Spock and would never have been aired in any form if not for scheduling problems, I understand. The second pilot had one scene when he kind of smirks, but nothing like that is seen again so clearly they realised it didn’t make sense for him to behave that way.

Yet he still does in two canon episodes, which we know at least one is significantly earlier timeline wise than the other.

So you are staying with: "Its canon dammit!"? OoooooK. That’s what I like about Star Trek. It encourages people to make more reasonable and considered decisions free from the shackles of dogma.

Spock certainly didn’t contradict him. Almost makes you think Vulcans don’t even have emotions doesn’t it?

Which they do, of course. If they didn't have emotions there wouldn't anything for them to suppress.

That’s just it. Are they suppressing them or have they been banished so there is nothing left to suppress?

Even Sturgeon seemed a little confused. At one point having McCoy say in Amok Time: "They [Vulcans] still go mad at this time. Perhaps the price they pay for having no emotions the rest of the time.". Then having Spock react emotionally to seeing Kirk alive. Must have been his human half again.

I think that's still debatable, but if you are right we should see Spock becoming more logical and unemotional as time goes on only to slip back down the human slope again.

Yes.

Can I have that in writing?

 

[Devon]

So you are staying with: "Its canon dammit!"?

Yes.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I think it's crazy that you guys don't see that, at minimum, Stonn was under ponfarr.

That's because there's no evidence, no reference within the episode to Stonn being in pon farr - none at all.

He loses his cool and speaks out of turn. He clearly wants to be T'Pau's mate.

If you infer from that, based on your own or some general fannish assumptions regarding what Vulcans are like and what "pon farr" involves, that Stonn's state of mind is somehow altered...well, that's nothing but your own inference. It's not supported by the episode itself.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I think it's crazy that you guys don't see that, at minimum, Stonn was under ponfarr.

That's because there's no evidence, no reference within the episode to Stonn being in pon farr - none at all.

He loses his cool and speaks out of turn. He clearly wants to be T'Pau's mate.

If you infer from that, based on your own or some general fannish assumptions regarding what Vulcans are like and what "pon farr" involves, that Stonn's state of mind is somehow altered...well, that's nothing but your own inference. It's not supported by the episode itself.

In fact wasn't the reason Kirk went through with the fight against Spock becuase he felt Spock couldn't take Stonn in his current condition which implies Stonn wasn't going through pon far.

 

[Anticitizen]

I think it's crazy that you guys don't see that, at minimum, Stonn was under ponfarr.

That's because there's no evidence, no reference within the episode to Stonn being in pon farr - none at all.

He loses his cool and speaks out of turn. He clearly wants to be T'Pau's mate.

If you infer from that, based on your own or some general fannish assumptions regarding what Vulcans are like and what "pon farr" involves, that Stonn's state of mind is somehow altered...well, that's nothing but your own inference. It's not supported by the episode itself.

In fact wasn't the reason Kirk went through with the fight against Spock becuase he felt Spock couldn't take Stonn in his current condition which implies Stonn wasn't going through pon far.

No, it was a calculated move on T'Pau's part. She picked Kirk as her 'champion' knowing that if Spock won, he would never consent to stay, and would leave, and she would get Stonn, and entitlement to Spock's estate. If Kirk won, same deal really - she'd still get Stonn.

 

[UFO]

In fact wasn't the reason Kirk went through with the fight against Spock becuase he felt Spock couldn't take Stonn in his current condition which implies Stonn wasn't going through pon far.

Perhaps, but Spock may have been weakened much more than your normal Pon Farr "contestant" by having to wait on the Enterprise so long (apparently it was killing him).

If you are right, I'm sure glad humans don't do things that way. Holy disadvantage Batman!

 

[kkozoriz1]

That's because there's no evidence, no reference within the episode to Stonn being in pon farr - none at all.

He loses his cool and speaks out of turn. He clearly wants to be T'Pau's mate.

If you infer from that, based on your own or some general fannish assumptions regarding what Vulcans are like and what "pon farr" involves, that Stonn's state of mind is somehow altered...well, that's nothing but your own inference. It's not supported by the episode itself.

In fact wasn't the reason Kirk went through with the fight against Spock becuase he felt Spock couldn't take Stonn in his current condition which implies Stonn wasn't going through pon far.

No, it was a calculated move on T'Pau's part. She picked Kirk as her 'champion' knowing that if Spock won, he would never consent to stay, and would leave, and she would get Stonn, and entitlement to Spock's estate. If Kirk won, same deal really - she'd still get Stonn.

T'Pring. I can't imagine Spock and T'Pau....

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

In fact wasn't the reason Kirk went through with the fight against Spock becuase he felt Spock couldn't take Stonn in his current condition which implies Stonn wasn't going through pon far.

No, it was a calculated move on T'Pau's part. She picked Kirk as her 'champion' knowing that if Spock won, he would never consent to stay, and would leave, and she would get Stonn, and entitlement to Spock's estate. If Kirk won, same deal really - she'd still get Stonn.

No, Hartzilla is right. T'Pring picked Kirk as her champion, but T'Pau made clear that Kirk could decline the challenge. He accepted because he guessed that if he didn't fight Spock, Stonn would.