Compare Sisko to the other Capts.

[Anwar]

That does seem a little far fetched. Seems more like an excuse to use an old villain rather than do the work of making a new one.

Seeing how the Hatedom has had it out for every single alien race created post VOY, there was little choice in the matter.

 

[Disillusioned]

Or it could also mean, they had theories of a cloaking device from data collected by Suliban encounters but until the Romulans made one from scratch no one knew how to make one.

Sounds like a stretch to me, and a pretty big one at that. In fact it sounds like someone making an excuse for something that shouldn't have been done.

And how it wasn't deliberate on their part.

Except they still did it, so it's there. All series had mistakes like that, so there's no point in trying to gloss over this one.

No name, no data, nothing to follow up on. And the Ferengi had been messing with the Feds around 30 years prior to TNG, so still no problem.

Conveniently no name, because Archer apparently never thought to ask, or to throw the lot of them in the brig and o take possession of their ship so as to examine it. There should be plenty of data from the shipboard sensors, and if they never thought to scan the Ferengi ship, again that's too convenient to allow for suspense of disbelief. What happened in that episode was a weak attempt at staying within the letter of what had been established that didn't even try to stay within the spirit of it. The Ferengi weren't encountered until about mid-24th century. But the people making the show thought back to how funny they thought the Ferengi episodes were in previous series, and thought they'd have some more laughs with this episode.

You haven't explained how.

Aside from the two arguments I listed above and why they fail, right? Try me. Give me an argument and watch me tear it to pieces.

They'd complain that with our modern tech we would have visual communications and weaponry more advanced than atomic rockets, yet by being less advanced than TOS we wouldn't have those things meaning the whole ship would be an anachronism for what should and shouldn't be there.

So? At least some effort would have been put into it.

Tell that to the ENT-haters, since they hated the stuff that WAS different from the TOS period.

I don't really care what people like that think.

 

[Disillusioned]

That does seem a little far fetched. Seems more like an excuse to use an old villain rather than do the work of making a new one.

Seeing how the Hatedom has had it out for every single alien race created post VOY, there was little choice in the matter.

Of course nothing stood in the way of using an appropriate old enemy, like say the Orions. Using the Borg was just an obvious attempt at grabbing some ratings, just like their over-use on VOY. The Borg are popular with the fans, First Contact had done well, so they contrived a way to fit them into ENT.

 

[Anwar]

Sounds like a stretch to me, and a pretty big one at that. In fact it sounds like someone making an excuse for something that shouldn't have been done.

Or someone trying to show that there is a rational alternative to ENT's "canon contradictions" other than immediate "THIS IS AN ABOMINAAAAATTTIIIOOONNN!".

Except they still did it, so it's there. All series had mistakes like that, so there's no point in trying to gloss over this one.

I'm not glossing it over, I'm just showing that it's not them giving the fans the middle finger.

Conveniently no name, because Archer apparently never thought to ask, or to throw the lot of them in the brig and o take possession of their ship so as to examine it. There should be plenty of data from the shipboard sensors, and if they never thought to scan the Ferengi ship, again that's too convenient to allow for suspense of disbelief. What happened in that episode was a weak attempt at staying within the letter of what had been established that didn't even try to stay within the spirit of it. The Ferengi weren't encountered until about mid-24th century. But the people making the show thought back to how funny they thought the Ferengi episodes were in previous series, and thought they'd have some more laughs with this episode.

Or the Ferengi weren't using a Ferengi vessel or Ferengi devices (cheaper) so scans wouldn't mean anything. There was no overt contradiction here, despite what the haters say.

Aside from the two arguments I listed above and why they fail, right? Try me. Give me an argument and watch me tear it to pieces.

Borg tech and drones are far more powerful and resilient than WW2 stuff, and them not announcing who they were is no excuse for saying it's a canon violation.

So? At least some effort would have been put into it.

And for all their effort, they'd still get nothing but hate. No point in working hard when you know they'll never accept it.

I don't really care what people like that think.

Too bad, since they prove that there's nothing the ENT team could have done to appease them.

And seeing how the fans ended up hating how the Orions were used when they WERE used, the ENT team was fully justified in making new enemies or using ones from the TNG period.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

And like I said, ENT didn't mess up canon like the Canonistas say it did. Any changes made HAD to be made otherwise the series wouldn't make sense with the tech we have TODAY.

But it did mess it up Anwar. The examples are endless. Some of them you are already discussing here, the Ferengi, the Borg, the Romulans...

There were all kinds of things they could have done to make Spock's explanation of the Romulan War make sense. They didn't do it because they were simply lazy and wanted to have a 'kewl' teched up ship.

 

[Red Ranger]

Back on topic, Sisko certainly seemed to shout at his people more than the other captains, like when he gave O'Brien a hard time for taking off his communicator in Captive Pursuit. It was rare for Archer, although T'Pol seemed to receive the majority of his wrath. Kirk's people didn't give him much backtalk, so he didn't have to dress them down many times -- he reserved that for guest officers, like Stiles. Picard dressed down most of his officers at one time or another, esp. in the first season, although I don't recall him doing it to Troi. And Janeway also gave most of her officers a tongue-lashing when required. So Sisko is the angriest captain!

Now, regarding canon violations, ENT had more than its fair share, to be expected, given its prequel status. Can't agree that the explanations given for the Ferengi and Borg canon violations. They're full of holes.

As for the discrepancy involving types of weapons, do we know for certain that the Romulan-Earth war happened after ENT? I'm not entirely convinced.

Red Ranger

 

[Anwar]

But it did mess it up Anwar. The examples are endless.

Hardly endless, and most aren't real contradictions or can be explained away.

There were all kinds of things they could have done to make Spock's explanation of the Romulan War make sense. They didn't do it because they were simply lazy and wanted to have a 'kewl' teched up ship.

Nothing would ever make sense of how atomic (not nuclear) weaponry was state of the art in the 22nd Century. And if they made it too different the criticisms would just be "It's not enough like Trek".

You. Just. Can't. Win.

 

[ClayHefner]

Nothing would ever make sense of how atomic (not nuclear) weaponry was state of the art in the 22nd Century. And if they made it too different the criticisms would just be "It's not enough like Trek".

You. Just. Can't. Win.

Somehow I can't believe the same dudes - who couldn't do the simple math to find out 36 million kilometers per second would not take them to another planet in four days- ditched Atomic Weapons for scientific reasons.

 

[Disillusioned]

Or someone trying to show that there is a rational alternative to ENT's "canon contradictions" other than immediate "THIS IS AN ABOMINAAAAATTTIIIOOONNN!".

Pointing out that there are contradictions in continuity is hardly doing what you suggest. At least I understand your resistance to admitting there were any problems at all.

I'm not glossing it over, I'm just showing that it's not them giving the fans the middle finger.

I don't believe I ever suggested as much. The finale is the only episode I would classify that way, actually.

Or the Ferengi weren't using a Ferengi vessel or Ferengi devices (cheaper) so scans wouldn't mean anything. There was no overt contradiction here, despite what the haters say.

First off, criticizing an aspect of the show for being contrived hardly makes me a hater, and I'd appreciate it if you refrain from such language in the future. Attitudes like that are why my username is what it is. As to the main point, that is again a really hard stretch, and I'll repeat what I said before about everything being far to convenient. The Ferengi should have been taken into custody and their ship gone over before it was scuttled.

Borg tech and drones are far more powerful and resilient than WW2 stuff,

That has nothing to do with getting buried in snow and ice. And fyi, most of those planes are on their way to flying again.

and them not announcing who they were is no excuse for saying it's a canon violation.

It's just one of many things against it.

And for all their effort, they'd still get nothing but hate. No point in working hard when you know they'll never accept it.

So in you view it would have been better not to do the show at all?

Too bad, since they prove that there's nothing the ENT team could have done to appease them.

And your point is, what, exactly? It was a great concept that could have done a lot, because it had the perfect setup, and they could have done new and interesting things with it. They chose to make Voyager in the 22nd century instead.

And seeing how the fans ended up hating how the Orions were used when they WERE used,

As I recall, most people were pissed at the "twist" and the end of the episode "Bound" more than anything else. Contrivances have a way of getting that reaction.

the ENT team was fully justified in making new enemies or using ones from the TNG period.

No, especially not the latter.

 

[PSGarak]

I'm just having a really hard time swallowing the whole, "It's a big hater conspiracy" idea. Usually, if that many people have a negative reaction to a derivative creative endeavor, it's because there are serious flaws and problems, not just because they're bound and determined to hate it because it's not the original. If that were the case, every Star Trek after TOS would have been unilaterally hated, and in fact, there might not have been more than one series after the original. All of the conflict and controversy surrounding ENT makes me glad I avoided the headache in the first place.

 

[Disillusioned]

Lucky you. I seem to keep getting drawn into this kind of debate/argument/whatever no matter where I go. Including a DS9 forum, apparently.

 

[Red Ranger]

Lucky you. I seem to keep getting drawn into this kind of debate/argument/whatever no matter where I go. Including a DS9 forum, apparently.

You contrarian! -- RR

 

[Anwar]

Pointing out that there are contradictions in continuity is hardly doing what you suggest. At least I understand your resistance to admitting there were any problems at all.

Sorry, but years of trying to talk reasonably with these kinds of people gets to you. After a while you just figure "Hell with it, if they aren't going to treat people who try to rationally take and explain things like people then I'm not going to treat them with any real respect or consideration."

I don't believe I ever suggested as much. The finale is the only episode I would classify that way, actually.

Fine, we both agree it wasn't an outright contradiction done deliberately.

First off, criticizing an aspect of the show for being contrived hardly makes me a hater, and I'd appreciate it if you refrain from such language in the future. Attitudes like that are why my username is what it is.

Yeah, well the "ENT is one giant plot hole" attitude is partly why I decided to stop treating the haters like people.

As to the main point, that is again a really hard stretch, and I'll repeat what I said before about everything being far to convenient. The Ferengi should have been taken into custody and their ship gone over before it was scuttled.

Convenient, maybe. But a lot of stuff in all of Trek is. If it HAD been the Orion pirates and everything was the same, you'd have had no problems with the episode, even if Archer did let them go without asking who they were. This is merely double standard.

That has nothing to do with getting buried in snow and ice. And fyi, most of those planes are on their way to flying again.

Or the remaining tech in the borg remains (or tech in the Borg bodies themselves) kept them from getting too buried.

It's just one of many things against it.

And still not a real contradiction unless you're grasping for straws.

So in you view it would have been better not to do the show at all?

No point when you know the audience will hate everything you do no matter what, including if you just give into their inane demands.

And your point is, what, exactly?

That they could have written episodes on par with "Balance of Terror", "Best of Both Worlds" or "Pale Moonlight" and they'd still be hated episodes.

It was a great concept that could have done a lot, because it had the perfect setup, and they could have done new and interesting things with it.

Not really, too much of what was stated in TOS no longer makes sense when you take real world advancements into consideration. A prequel is just a bad idea, period.

As I recall, most people were pissed at the "twist" and the end of the episode "Bound" more than anything else. Contrivances have a way of getting that reaction.

They would have hated it even without the twist. They hated that Orions being used in ENT at all (which makes the haters out to be massive hypocrites with endless double standards)

No, especially not the latter.

They were, they made it clear that they hated ENT using TOS races and they hated the original species ENT created so they had no choice.

 

[Disillusioned]

Sorry, but years of trying to talk reasonably with these kinds of people gets to you. After a while you just figure "Hell with it, if they aren't going to treat people who try to rationally take and explain things like people then I'm not going to treat them with any real respect or consideration."

Fine, we both agree it wasn't an outright contradiction done deliberately.

Uh, what?

Yeah, well the "ENT is one giant plot hole" attitude is partly why I decided to stop treating the haters like people.

Well there's your problem right there.

Convenient, maybe. But a lot of stuff in all of Trek is. If it HAD been the Orion pirates and everything was the same, you'd have had no problems with the episode, even if Archer did let them go without asking who they were. This is merely double standard.

Actually I would have had a problem had Archer simply let them go, no matter who it was. They knocked the entire crew out, boarded the ship, attempted to steal equipment, and attempted to kidnap several female crewmembers, presumably to sell into the sex trade. Not exactly something you should just let the pirates go for after getting the upper hand on them.

Or the remaining tech in the borg remains (or tech in the Borg bodies themselves) kept them from getting too buried.

Uh, no, everything was dead, remember? And even if that was the case it would have been at the bottom of a giant hole.

And still not a real contradiction unless you're grasping for straws.

I'd say it's the other way around, with people grasping at straws to excuse it.

No point when you know the audience will hate everything you do no matter what, including if you just give into their inane demands.

Except that the people who did that weren't a part of the audience.

That they could have written episodes on par with "Balance of Terror", "Best of Both Worlds" or "Pale Moonlight" and they'd still be hated episodes.

No, if episodes were good, people would have watched, the same as any other series. There has been negativity around each new series since TNG, but TNG still remains the most popular of them, and IMO DS9 is the best of them. And with DS9 there were people claiming that since it was set on a station that the show would be boring and wouldn't go anywhere. They were wrong.

Not really, too much of what was stated in TOS no longer makes sense when you take real world advancements into consideration. A prequel is just a bad idea, period.

Not really. Granted I'm not a huge TOS fan due to the campy-ness, but a prequel series could have had a lot of potential. What spoiled it as that the producers and the studio suits tried to force it to be something else.

They would have hated it even without the twist. They hated that Orions being used in ENT at all (which makes the haters out to be massive hypocrites with endless double standards)

None of the people I've seen complain about that episode gave any such indication. When the Orions first showed up, it actually excited a lot of people because this was the first time since TOS that we got to see any, and it was the first time we got to see the men of their species.

They were, they made it clear that they hated ENT using TOS races and they hated the original species ENT created so they had no choice.

Most people I saw complaining complained about the lack of TOS aliens, and how continuing the old "alien of the week" style didn't really make all that much sense given the more limited nature of this show's premise. If there had been more focus on the "birth of the Federation" aspect of the show instead of doing more of the random episodic storytelling that VOY basically did, I have little doubt the show would have been better received. Even if I didn't care for the show's execution, I still saw the potential the show had.

 

[Bisz]

Dis, don't bother. I and many others have had this conversation with Anwar before, its no use.

He is the very embodiment of all of the negative traits, all of the stereotypes, all of the blind dogmatic spewing, all of the nonsense that he attributes to his mythical 'haters', only from the gusher side of the argument.

 

[Anwar]

Dis, don't bother. I and many others have had this conversation with Anwar before, its no use.

He is the very embodiment of all of the negative traits, all of the stereotypes, all of the blind dogmatic spewing, all of the nonsense that he attributes to his mythical 'haters', only from the gusher side of the argument.

In other words, the Haters can't stand there's a guy out there willing to stand up to them and their nonsense.

 

[Anwar]

Uh, what?

We both agree it wasn't them doing it deliberately just to spite the audience.

Well there's your problem right there.

They brought it on themselves, if they don't like how they get treated they shouldn't have acted the way they did to everyone else.

Actually I would have had a problem had Archer simply let them go, no matter who it was. They knocked the entire crew out, boarded the ship, attempted to steal equipment, and attempted to kidnap several female crewmembers, presumably to sell into the sex trade. Not exactly something you should just let the pirates go for after getting the upper hand on them.

Did they have explicit proof of any of that stuff, aside from the boarding? Taking them in without any proof would just have gotten them in trouble with other galactic authorities.

Uh, no, everything was dead, remember? And even if that was the case it would have been at the bottom of a giant hole.

Or the Borg tech put them into suspended animation and kept them from being buried too deeply for when they could be revived.

I'd say it's the other way around, with people grasping at straws to excuse it.

We'll just have to disagree here, since most haters I've encountered have nothing but silly reasons for hating Trek shows.

Except that the people who did that weren't a part of the audience.

Face it, the audience had it out for ENT before anything was known about it. There's nothing they could have done to appease them.

[quote[No, if episodes were good, people would have watched, the same as any other series.[/quote]

They were ready to tear into the show as soon as it was announced. And they were already to tear into every episode regardless of quality.

There has been negativity around each new series since TNG, but TNG still remains the most popular of them, and IMO DS9 is the best of them. And with DS9 there were people claiming that since it was set on a station that the show would be boring and wouldn't go anywhere. They were wrong.

ENT haters are also TNG haters, and DS9 gets a free pass/double standard from everyone.

Not really. Granted I'm not a huge TOS fan due to the campy-ness, but a prequel series could have had a lot of potential. What spoiled it as that the producers and the studio suits tried to force it to be something else.

In other words, it wasn't exactly what you wanted down to every detail and thus isn't worthy of consideration.

None of the people I've seen complain about that episode gave any such indication. When the Orions first showed up, it actually excited a lot of people because this was the first time since TOS that we got to see any, and it was the first time we got to see the men of their species.

Most people I've seen complaining about it just blather on about how it didn't fit their non-canon preconceptions of how the Orions should've been and thus the whole thing was garbage.

Most people I saw complaining complained about the lack of TOS aliens, and how continuing the old "alien of the week" style didn't really make all that much sense given the more limited nature of this show's premise. If there had been more focus on the "birth of the Federation" aspect of the show instead of doing more of the random episodic storytelling that VOY basically did, I have little doubt the show would have been better received. Even if I didn't care for the show's execution, I still saw the potential the show had.

TOS had lots of "Aliens of the week" never seen again, which makes this a double standard.

And "Birth of the Federation" would have just been endlessly criticized for being Trek's take on Babylon 5. You just can't win.

 

[Disillusioned]

Dis, don't bother. I and many others have had this conversation with Anwar before, its no use.

He is the very embodiment of all of the negative traits, all of the stereotypes, all of the blind dogmatic spewing, all of the nonsense that he attributes to his mythical 'haters', only from the gusher side of the argument.

I think I'll heed that advice.

 

[foxmulder710]

Sisko > All other captains.

There, I said it.

Sisko had this gravitas about him, especially near the end of the Dominion War, that no one else could capture. He also made more difficult decisions (pleasantly morally ambiguous ones!) than any other captain.