Compare Sisko to the other Capts.
- Thread starter Photon
- Start date
Sisko was great but even he was shut down by one Starfleet officer. You should be able to figure out who. 
I think most of the "canon violations" in Enterprise's early seasons were subsequently fixed/retconned in Season 4 anyway.
Hmmmm
"...As you recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship, visual communication; therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous... and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, sent by subspace radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time... Captain?"
"What you don't know, and must now be told, is that my command orders on this subject are precise and inviolable. No act, no provocation, will be considered sufficient reason to violate the zone. We may defend ourselves... but, if necessary to avoid interspace war, both these outposts – and this vessel – will be considered expendable."
- Spock and Kirk
So all of a sudden the Romulans and SF quit using their phase cannons and disruptors, photonic torpedoes to use "primitive atomic weapons"
SF ships quit using their brigs during the Earth/Romulus War and quit using their visuals in contact w/others...great continuity...but that's right...that continuity thingy is just in our minds.
"...As you recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship, visual communication; therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous... and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, sent by subspace radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time... Captain?"
"What you don't know, and must now be told, is that my command orders on this subject are precise and inviolable. No act, no provocation, will be considered sufficient reason to violate the zone. We may defend ourselves... but, if necessary to avoid interspace war, both these outposts – and this vessel – will be considered expendable."
- Spock and Kirk
So all of a sudden the Romulans and SF quit using their phase cannons and disruptors, photonic torpedoes to use "primitive atomic weapons"
SF ships quit using their brigs during the Earth/Romulus War and quit using their visuals in contact w/others...great continuity...but that's right...that continuity thingy is just in our minds.
Re: Hmmmm
ENT not using atomic weapons made sense, seeing how atomic weapons are more primitive than the nuclear weapons we have TODAY. That HAD to be changed or the series wouldn't make sense. That's not bad continuity, that's SANITY.
Spock's dialog never explicitly says that ship-to-ship visual communications didn't exist, just that they weren't used in the war. Meaning that the Romulans could just not have used them to not let others see what they looked like.
And yes, perhaps the kind of fighting used was intense enough that they never had survivors in battle to take captive. Still not a canon violation.
ENT not using atomic weapons made sense, seeing how atomic weapons are more primitive than the nuclear weapons we have TODAY. That HAD to be changed or the series wouldn't make sense. That's not bad continuity, that's SANITY.
Spock's dialog never explicitly says that ship-to-ship visual communications didn't exist, just that they weren't used in the war. Meaning that the Romulans could just not have used them to not let others see what they looked like.
And yes, perhaps the kind of fighting used was intense enough that they never had survivors in battle to take captive. Still not a canon violation.
atomic and nuclear are the same thing, no?
Disillusioned
Commander
Then of course there's the use of cloaking technology, which was seen as new in TOS. Then there was the Ferengi and the Borg, and the contrived reasoning used that since they didn't mention their name that it somehow doesn't count. Stuff like that, mostly. As for the tech argument, not really. They certainly didn't need all the analogues of 23rd and 24th century technology they had. They did a good job with computer tech by making it closer to modern tech, I think, and it certainly wouldn't have hurt to do the same with everything else kind of like what BSG did.
The cloaking tech was used by the Suliban and was because of the Time War. The Romulans using it was a mistake because the ENT Cloak was supposed to be like stealth: The ships would still be there, just undetectable by sensors. The FX team just thought it was the same cloak as always and did it that way.
The Ferengi had been attacking the Feds for years before TNG, so it's still not a canon violation. Nor was the Borg.
And if they had made it like BSG they'd still get complaints only they'd be "There's no way this evolved into what we saw in TOS+" so it's lose-lose.
The Ferengi had been attacking the Feds for years before TNG, so it's still not a canon violation. Nor was the Borg.
And if they had made it like BSG they'd still get complaints only they'd be "There's no way this evolved into what we saw in TOS+" so it's lose-lose.
I don't think so. Atomic and nuclear are the same thing. What you might be talking about are H bombs, which use fusion as opposed to atomic which use fission. But they are both referred to as "nuclear".
When spock said primitive atomic weapons, there is no reason to believe that they used primitive nuclear weapons, they could have been much more advanced than we have today, but still primitive by Spock's standars. Atomic and nuclear can be used interchangeably and the yield of the weapons against the Romulans might have been much greater than the most powerful Hydrogen bombs today. Then agains, they could have used small atomic missiles due to the limit of how much early craft could have carried.
Bottom line is: This should have been done on the Enterprise. There is no excuse not to have some kind of missiles on that show.
Yeah, there is. If they'd used nuclear missiles then they'd still get complaints that they were too powerful/good looking and not atomic. And if they used Atomic missiles they'd get complaints that it wasn't up to date with what we have today. Atomic isn't the same as nuclear since modern nukes (and thus, future nukes) use fusion and not fission (which is atomic weapons), and this was a case of having to ditch it for something else.
Like I said, it's lose-lose. Although since the fans were ready to hate the show before it started, the whole thing was a lost cause.
Like I said, it's lose-lose. Although since the fans were ready to hate the show before it started, the whole thing was a lost cause.
Disillusioned
Commander
But it was still being used. It was also used by those weird aliens that raped Trip and made him preggers. Point is that using it at all would hardly make it so novel during the TOS period.
Which is still a canon violation.
How is it not? It's true that they had been making a nuisance of themselves for a while before Picard and crew got a face-to-face chat with them, but there's still plenty of time between TOS and TNG to where the Federation expanding would cause them to run into the Ferengi. The only reason they were brought in on ENT was to do a comedy episode with them the same as so many before.
Yes, it was. I've heard every argument, including those from Sussman himself, but none of them hold water.
Actually it would have two things going for it.
1) No one could claim it was more advanced than TOS
2) A century is plenty of time for things to "evolve" to the way they were in TOS. There was nothing that even said Earth's ships had to have such a strong resemblance to established Federation designs, since it was just Earth being presented, after all.
Spock said that the cloak was theoretical in TOS, meaning that Fed scientists had theories about how it worked. Therefore, seeing the Suliban and the male pregnancy aliens using them is what gave them the idea for the theory. They just couldn't build one for themselves.
Excusable
Still not a violation. Kirk ran into lots of Aliens in TOS that no one ever saw again in other series. So Archer can run into at least one that wouldn't be encountered again for over 100 years.
Or you just aren't accepting of them.
1) In ways, it still would be only now the rest of the ship would look so backwards the whole thing wouldn't make any sense.
2) Then they'd complain it wasn't enough like TOS and that they should've just made it a non-Trek show because it doesn't fit the rest of it. Double Standards, unpleasable fans, etc.
Disillusioned
Commander
Actually in that context it would mean that a cloaking device would be theoretically possible, but they haven't seen one yet.
Not really, since we're discussing ENT canon violations and how they supposedly aren't violations. Except at least here you can admit it was.
Here Archer had them at his mercy. Yet he doesn't ask their name, try to hack their computer, or haul them in (they are pirates after all)? Talk about contrived. So yeah, considering that they were supposed to be fairly new on the scene in the late 24th century, I'd count an encounter with an Earth ship in the 22nd as a continuity problem.
No, they just don't hold water.
How, exactly? It seems to me like you might be one of the fans who would have a problem with the 22nd century not resembling the 23rd.
They could argue that all they want, but anyone who actually thought about it wouldn't hold the expectation that everything would be the same as 100 years later.
Disillusioned
Commander
The main one was that since First Contact already altered the timeline, Regeneration was simply a continuation of that. Never mind the impossibility of a ship we saw blown into tiny pieces somehow surviving, and somehow not being buried under hundreds of feet of ice like those WWII warplanes that have been dug out from Greenland, drones not being burned up on reentry, etc. And since the Borg were apparently afraid to announce to everyone who they were like they usually do, this was supposed to leave things open to all the rumors that were flying around early in TNG before the Enterprise-D actually encountered a Borg ship. Those are the two main arguments.
Or it could also mean, they had theories of a cloaking device from data collected by Suliban encounters but until the Romulans made one from scratch no one knew how to make one.
And how it wasn't deliberate on their part.
No name, no data, nothing to follow up on. And the Ferengi had been messing with the Feds around 30 years prior to TNG, so still no problem.
You haven't explained how.
They'd complain that with our modern tech we would have visual communications and weaponry more advanced than atomic rockets, yet by being less advanced than TOS we wouldn't have those things meaning the whole ship would be an anachronism for what should and shouldn't be there.
Tell that to the ENT-haters, since they hated the stuff that WAS different from the TOS period.
