Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoilers)

[ATimson]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

Star Wars and Star Trek have always had the same stance towards towards using continuity points from licensed material, Trek has just been more honest about it.

They've always had the same stance about the movies/TV shows being king, yes. The difference between the two is that Star Wars generally tries to make the myriad tie-ins all consistent with each other (even the video games), whereas Trek's recent continuity among the novels is entirely in the authors' hands instead of being a dictate from on high (unfortunately).

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

Pseudo-science is basically magic anyway. Better to have left it unexplained and beyond science.

I'd like the Force to be tethered to science but in a streamlined, fable-like way, not in a way that you can examine under a microscope. Microscopes have no place in fables!

Like this: people have tried to define "life" in a way that definitively separates it from all non-living things, but there isn't any single definition that works. It's like there's some "other" missing element that is the thing that puts the stamp of life on living things, and not on non-living things. But what is that thing?

Maybe it's the Force. We mere mortals cannot perceive it in any way, which is why we don't know it exists. Star Wars has people who can perceive it in order to use it. That doesn't mean they understand it. They may think they understand it, and they make up theories about it, but those theories are forever unprovable and probably wrong. The Force is something you feel (in the sense of touch and emotion), not something you think about or observe scientifically.

 

[fett51]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

Except for the fact that ( as usual ) the TCW version is inconsistent with the EU version. It's the all-too-familiar scenario: "There's a planet called Dathomir with some Force witches? And they're called Nightsisters? KEWL! We can use that!" Forgetting all about the light side ones, the rancors, Gethzerion, etc.

Somewhat. They could stick the rancors in later (there wasn't much place for them in this story), and Talzin did say her clan had been in exile for years. However given Obi-wan referred to them as an ancient order, the history of Gethzerion starting the group has to be retconned. She could start the group we see in Courtship after this one gets wiped out though.

This is Star Wars. It should be simple, like a fable. You gotcher Jedi, you gotcher Sith. Jedi = good, Sith = evil. Everyone uses the Force. You wanna use the Force? Choose which side yer on. Otherwise, take your lightsaber and go home.

As of Nightsisters the jedi/sith dichotomy is out the window, even moreso after next week looks like. It's just light side/dark side, but there are different ways of following each.

 

[Mach5]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

Just a note - midichlorians never explained anything. All that we know about them is that they serve as a kind of mediary between the Jedi and the Force, but the Force itself is still very much a mystery.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

As of Nightsisters the jedi/sith dichotomy is out the window, even moreso after next week looks like. It's just light side/dark side, but there are different ways of following each.

Yeah, the Nightsisters seem definitely in a grey area. They're certainly not nasty dysfunctional Sith jackasses, but also not noble, upstanding self-sacrificing Jedi. They've created their own society that is functional for them, but maybe not so much for outsiders. Well, too bad for the outsiders.

If I were a Force user, and had to choose some gang or another (if that's the rules; can you just hide out?) and it were Jedi, Sith or Nightsisters, I'd definitely scram for Dathomir, where I don't have to live under onerous rules with old nanny goats telling me how to live my life on the one hand, or creeps who will inevitably stab me in the back on the other.

A life of self-sacrifice for ingrateful citizens of a degenerate Republic, or a life of constant violence, anger and paranoia? What a choice! Perhaps this is a test by the Force to see whether Force-users will be smart enough to choose Door Number Three?

I'll see how the upcoming complication suits me, I guess. I like the idea of Star Wars sticking to fable-like simplicity, but I also like the notion that the Jedi and Sith are both just pigheadedly following a code that is needlessly narrow-minded.

And I definitely can see how if Anakin realizes this isn't all just a game of Jedi or Sith, he might start to get more experimental, which will lead to unpredictable results and possibly help solve the biggest problem this show now has, that by rewriting Anakin, they've invalidated the underlying logic of his fall and need to come up with something else. If it all happened because Anakin was desperately searching for Door Number Three, then I can buy that for a dollar.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

As of Nightsisters the jedi/sith dichotomy is out the window, even moreso after next week looks like.

The Nightsisters are no big revelation. If they don't seem "evil" enough to be called "Sith", we've seen "Dark Jedi" before. This is nothing new. Nor should it be. The existence of beings with a "gray area" or "middling" morality is no revelation in any universe. It's just the way things are. No one ever said all Force users had to be one extreme or the other. Force users are not the Force.

It should be simple, like a fable. You gotcher Jedi, you gotcher Sith. Jedi = good, Sith = evil. Everyone uses the Force.

Not quite that simple. The Sith embrace use of the dark side. The Jedi do not.

I totally believe the idea of biologically inheritance to Force sensitivity. That's fine. But to try and attach it to some sort of biological pseudo-scientific explanation falls flat for me.

They are one and the same. If there's no biological connection in the explanation, there's no biological inheritance. If Force ability is determined "mystically" then it can't be guaranteed by heredity. There's nothing "mystical" about "I know my twin sister is strong in the Force because I am strong in the Force".

 

[Professor Zoom]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

I totally believe the idea of biologically inheritance to Force sensitivity. That's fine. But to try and attach it to some sort of biological pseudo-scientific explanation falls flat for me.

They are one and the same. If there's no biological connection in the explanation, there's no biological inheritance. If Force ability is determined "mystically" then it can't be guaranteed by heredity. There's nothing "mystical" about "I know my twin sister is strong in the Force because I am strong in the Force".

We're gonna have to disagree on that.

It's way more mystical to me to say, I'm strong in the force and I know or feel my sister is strong in the force, than to say, I have a high midiclorian count and so does my sister.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

A biological connection could be mystical as well as, or instead of, scientific, if family members have a mystical connection, which sounds plausible.

But it's also ok to say your DNA pre-disposes you to be Force-sensitive without bringing midichlorians into the mix. Just have the actual mechanism be mysterious. Everything does not need to be explained.

It's way more mystical to me to say, I'm strong in the force and I know or feel my sister is strong in the force, than to say, I have a high midiclorian count and so does my sister.

Yeah, it's a stylistic thing.

 

[fett51]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

The Nightsisters are no big revelation. If they don't seem "evil" enough to be called "Sith", we've seen "Dark Jedi" before. This is nothing new. Nor should it be. The existence of beings with a "gray area" or "middling" morality is no revelation in any universe. It's just the way things are. No one ever said all Force users had to be one extreme or the other. Force users are not the Force.

Not new in terms of the overall canon, but so far as I can remember this is the first time we've seen that attitude in something Lucas is hands-on about. To me that's a big deal because stuff he does is the most likely to get picked up by future writers.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

Yeah it's official(ish) now and worth paying attention to. I'm interested to see how this all plays into Anakin's story. Sure changes things if he has a potential third option and doesn't have to play by anybody else's rules.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

It's way more mystical to me to say, I'm strong in the force and I know or feel my sister is strong in the force, than to say, I have a high midiclorian count and so does my sister.

"Mystical" would be random people with no family connection. If it applies to everyone in a certain family, that's not mystical. That's something running in a bloodline. Also known as biological inheritance.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

So why does everyone keep nattering on about "the dark side" if there isn't one? Is that Sith propaganda to scare everyone (oooh we have the dark side, watch out for the dark side!!!) or does it actually mean the far end of the continuum and "dark end of the Force" just doesn't sound as catchy?

 

[Whofan]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

I remember reading in the novels that there are several force 'cults' that don't fit into the Jedi or Sith definition. There's the Dark Jedi of course, which is kind of a vague definition for those who aren't fully Sith....the Agricorps who are Jedi dropouts or failures, the Jensaari from some of the novels, the Fallanasi and a few others....plus Luke's "New Jedi Order" changes several of the old Jedi rules and is almost a seperate entity.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

Star Wars and Star Trek have always had the same stance towards towards using continuity points from licensed material, Trek has just been more honest about it.

They've always had the same stance about the movies/TV shows being king, yes. The difference between the two is that Star Wars generally tries to make the myriad tie-ins all consistent with each other (even the video games), whereas Trek's recent continuity among the novels is entirely in the authors' hands instead of being a dictate from on high (unfortunately).

Actually, it's been put forth by a nerd with too much time on his hands that the Trek novel-verse is not all that recent and, in essense, dates all of the way back to The Entropy Effect, the first ever Pocket release, interupted for a few years by the Richard Arnold mandates of the 90's. Surely, the sheer volume of releases listed herein-- novels, comics and video games alike with consistancy, rivals even that of the SWEU.

And sure, there are some contradictions, as there has been with SWEU as well (Stackpole, for one, was great with the "continuity patch"), but SW tie-ins have it far easier than Trek tie-ins just by the fact that there is only 12-odd hours of canon material in SW in which to adhere to, compared to 225-odd hours of Trek.

And it's true that not all Trek novelists have to shoe-horn their stories into a single continuity, but that can be a strength as well. If not, we never would have gotted David R. George's brilliant Crucible: McCoy novel, or the Crucilbe trilogy as a whole.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

So why does everyone keep nattering on about "the dark side" if there isn't one?

Why does everyone keep pretending there isn't one?

Not new in terms of the overall canon, but so far as I can remember this is the first time we've seen that attitude in something Lucas is hands-on about. To me that's a big deal because stuff he does is the most likely to get picked up by future writers.

I don't think future writers need Lucas to tell them you could have such a thing. Either they'd be familiar with the EU ( in which case they'd be getting the idea as much from preexisting EU as from TCW ) or not ( in which case they'd presumably be familiar with the concepts of free will and ambivalent moral natures ). The past writers picked it up just fine without needing Lucas' say-so.

Speaking of past writers, we've already seen a "less rapacious" group of Sith: the Brotherhood. These are still darksiders - just weak in Darth Bane's eyes. Also, there's a reason that Talzin sounds totally creepy like Palpatine right before Order 66.

 

[ATimson]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

Actually, it's been put forth by a nerd with too much time on his hands that the Trek novel-verse is not all that recent and, in essense, dates all of the way back to The Entropy Effect, the first ever Pocket release, interupted for a few years by the Richard Arnold mandates of the 90's.

I think you're overly inclusive, but even saying that (much less explaining why) is kinda beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

Just a note - midichlorians never explained anything. All that we know about them is that they serve as a kind of mediary between the Jedi and the Force, but the Force itself is still very much a mystery.

Yep, the midichlorians accomplished nothing but to piss people off.

There's the Dark Jedi of course, which is kind of a vague definition for those who aren't fully Sith....

I figured they were playing for Team Sith and were therefore 100% evil. If there are degrees of darksiders now, then there's no excuse for continuing to depict the bad guys in one-dimensional terms. I'm getting really sick of Dooku and General Grievous, and even Ventress could stand to start showing a bit more personality range. Let's see some of those sorta-good, sorta-evil guys. Those are always the best characters in a story!

 

[6079SmithW]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

Just a note - midichlorians never explained anything. All that we know about them is that they serve as a kind of mediary between the Jedi and the Force, but the Force itself is still very much a mystery.

Yep, the midichlorians accomplished nothing but to piss people off.

Hey, all you midi-chlorian haters out there. Guess what? Scientists recently discovered symbiotic bacteria living inside mitochondria and they got permission from Lucas to name them midi-chlorians. Well, a binomial version of it anyway.

So not only do midi-chlorians actually exist in the real world but they are inside you right now. Have a nice day, ye bearers of midi-chlorians.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

We all have midichlorians!?! Wow, let me see if I can levitate my desk.

Hmm, dang. I don't think those midichlorians work as advertised. Now I'm even more pissed off!!!

 

[Professor Zoom]

Re: Commentary on the current state of Star Wars continuity(some spoil

It's way more mystical to me to say, I'm strong in the force and I know or feel my sister is strong in the force, than to say, I have a high midiclorian count and so does my sister.

"Mystical" would be random people with no family connection. If it applies to everyone in a certain family, that's not mystical. That's something running in a bloodline. Also known as biological inheritance.

Again, we'll have to disagree. Mystical doesn't have to be random people. Mystical means unexplained, supernatural. So, my family could have a stronger connection to the supernatural... and yes, it might be biological, but that doesn't mean people understand HOW the connection works, ie, midiclorians.

As far as your random people, couldn't random people have midiclorians? Couldn't two parents who don't have a count, ie, a recessive gene, have a kid that has a high one? Look at Anakin, he's a random person with a high midiclorian count.