Cobra Kai - The Karate Kid Saga Continues

[sttngfan1701d]

Also...Johnny's question about not being able to find a Trapper Keeper for Robbie...that's more than him (yet again) being stuck in the 80's. I looked it up, and there WAS a shortage of Trapper Keepers in 2018 (and this year too). Mead has made fewer of them in recent years because teachers don't like them, and as such, they weren't at many stores starting in the 2018 school year.

They are ON THE BALL with this show, I swear.

Plus, Johnny's fighter jet Trapper Keeper is on Ebay for a cool $50. And he's right...it's awesome.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Spoiler

I have never seen a fight like that last that long, but I guess I could stand corrected. Thing is, most fights don't evolve into 1 on 1 match ups. This was like a gang fight, and you might see people switching opponents and a lot more cheap shots on both sides.


I get your point about Cobra Kai winning last year, but if we want to go with the realism aspect, assuming everything we saw on the show, and the general reality that Cobra Kai had more training than Miyagi-Do, in general, it wouldn't be all or nothing. We had how many one on one fights in that scene? I'd have to count, but I think it should have been split.

Yes, I'm cool with Demitri's training finally kicking in, but Hawk should have won that fight. One drawback to this saga is that I think it grossly underestimates the time and practice it takes to become really good at karate. Give me 6 weeks with the best teacher in the world, where I go all in and respond as well as one can expect, and I won't beat a top level competitor who had been fighting for years. I could be ok with Demitri blocking a few of Hawk's shots and surprising Hawk a bit, but I didn't like Demitri winning. A Hawk redemption story might be in the works, or it might not be. Of course, Demitri deserved that beating for saying Jodie Whitaker is a good Doctor, but that's another topic.

That was an issue with the first movie, and an issue with the first season. It also implies that no other dojo in California is any good. But I guess we can ignore that because it's such a good show overall.

I absolutely believe they are getting Elizabeth Shue back next year. I saw a theory and I really like it--Ali is a pediatric surgeon. Miguel is badly hurt. Maybe she's top notch and can help Miguel better than anyone else.

Everyone on this show is flawed, but not so flawed that no one is likeable. I've seen shows where there are good guys and bad guys, but the good guys are kind of douchey, and I don't like them either. This isn't that.

At this point, I think they have to back off on the Mike Barnes/Terry Silver potential--maybe in Season 4. They have a lot to resolve and move forward in Season 3.

 

[Random_Spock]

Finally got to see ep 1 of season 2... a good start so far.

Can't ever catch up though, given that I don't plan on getting Youtube Red/Premium. And the show doesn't ever plan on coming out on dvd/bluray.

 

[Skipper]

Well about THE fight...

I believe the point of the previous movies and the show is that Miyagi-Do is simply the best karate out there and even relativity inexperienced practitioners can do miracles...

And I mean, in Karate Kid II Miyagi humiliated an ex-marine and SEAL instructor who had won multiple Karate Tournaments without almost even touching him. His technique was simply on another level.

 

[Aragorn]

When it came to one particular fight, the kid got a lucky kick in because the other kid is all aggression and doesn't do defense, and having a few of his moves blocked by a wimp probably took him by surprise.

 

[Skipper]

Incidentally, I just read this article about another "classic" of the 80s, Revenge of The Nerds
12 Nightmarish Questions Raised By 'Revenge Of The Nerds'

Yes, the hero of this movie rapes. And there are so many reasons it's fucked up in addition to, you know, the main one. Near the end of the film, Lewis, the main nerd, puts on a mask to disguise himself as mean girl Betty's boyfriend. She then learns a hard, criminally prosecutable lesson in verifying your partner's identity before sex. I know you don't need a lecture on consent, but getting your dick in before they realize you're the wrong person is not it.

Now I'm trying to imagine a sequel of ROTN done in the Cobra Kai style, where the protagonist admits that he was a rapist...

 

[Reverend]

Well about THE fight...

I believe the point of the previous movies and the show is that Miyagi-Do is simply the best karate out there and even relativity inexperienced practitioners can do miracles...

And I mean, in Karate Kid II Miyagi humiliated an ex-marine and SEAL instructor who had won multiple Karate Tournaments without almost even touching him. His technique was simply on another level.

My read on it was that it had less to to with technique then it did mentality. Mr. Miyagi was centred, focused and in balance. Kreese was none of those things and literally defeated himself. Miyagi just moved out of his way.

Miyagi's lessons were all about mentality, or at least that was always the foundation. Self mastery first, not just move sets and techniques.

 

[Skipper]

My read on it was that it had less to to with technique then it did mentality. Mr. Miyagi was centred, focused and in balance. Kreese was none of those things and literally defeated himself. Miyagi just moved out of his way.

Miyagi's lessons were all about mentality, or at least that was always the foundation. Self mastery first, not just move sets and techniques.

Well, I consider Miyagi's mentality an integral part of his techniques, exactly as the aggressiveness was the basis of what they taught at Cobra Kai.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

Now that I think about it, Mr. Miyagi -- as an older guy, and one from another culture-- was obviously more chill and centered than most people. Teenagers, being a massive jumble of hormones, would naturally find that mastering the Miyagi-do approach very difficult. I think that's part of the failure here. Daniel thinks that he's tried his best but he still can't do what Miyagi did, because both Sam (to a lesser extent) and especially Robbie are prone to aggression at different points in the story. And I don't know whether that's due to them being teens or to Daniel himself being...well, Daniel. Probably both. He's not Mr. Miyagi. He never will be. He can cultivate all the bonsai trees he wants, but he's still lived his own life, and can't let go of teenage rivalries.

Johnny is finding that out from the opposite way. It's not the teaching itself that resulted in the fight. It's the teaching instilled in the minds of volatile teens, doing teenage crap. So this is why I think they're going to have to join forces (somehow) in season 3. They can't let Kreese fill the vacuum that they both leave if they quit their dojos. There's merit in both approaches. But they need to figure out a way to modulate these teens' impulses.

 

[Random_Spock]

Now that I think about it, Mr. Miyagi -- as an older guy, and one from another culture-- was obviously more chill and centered than most people. Teenagers, being a massive jumble of hormones, would naturally find that mastering the Miyagi-do approach very difficult. I think that's part of the failure here. Daniel thinks that he's tried his best but he still can't do what Miyagi did, because both Sam (to a lesser extent) and especially Robbie are prone to aggression at different points in the story. And I don't know whether that's due to them being teens or to Daniel himself being...well, Daniel. Probably both. He's not Mr. Miyagi. He never will be. He can cultivate all the bonsai trees he wants, but he's still lived his own life, and can't let go of teenage rivalries.

Johnny is finding that out from the opposite way. It's not the teaching itself that resulted in the fight. It's the teaching instilled in the minds of volatile teens, doing teenage crap. So this is why I think they're going to have to join forces (somehow) in season 3. They can't let Kreese fill the vacuum that they both leave if they quit their dojos. There's merit in both approaches. But they need to figure out a way to modulate these teens' impulses.

You bring up a very good point about that. I'm thinking that they'll have to do that eventually as well. I wonder how Kreese will react to it if/when it happens.

 

[Aragorn]

Cobra Kai's been renewed. Not a surprise, since I can't name a single other program on YouTube Originals.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I hope people are cool with no longer providing spoiler captions.

So many speculations as to the future of the series, and with 4 movies of source material, there are plenty of characters to bring back.

Obviously the first one that makes sense is Ali.

It's so clear that Johnny never got over her. And looking at that 35 years later, it brings a whole new perspective on the first movie.

The movie tries to go through the narrative that Johnny was some evil bully, but when looking at it through his eyes, Daniel was NOT innocent.

There are several videos on Youtube about this subject, and even Cobra Kai itself mentioned it in Season 1, but there's some truth.

Johnny was wrong on many things, but so was Daniel, especially in that initial confrontation, which was between Johnny and Ali, not Johnny and Daniel--until Daniel stuck his nose where it didn't belong.

Tough position for Daniel, trying to impress the girl, but I think Ali could have handled Johnny far better than Daniel did and Daniel's problem with Johnny started because Daniel was trying to impress a girl.

Most of that initial fight was actually self defense and if you watch it, Johnny used the minimal amount of force to stop Daniel's aggression.

It was only when Daniel did a sucker punch that Johnny lost his temper.

Right after that, Daniel got into a fight on the soccer field with the same people. If you watch that scene, the play Bobby did wasn't that bad, but Daniel was a hot head, and threw a punch to the face.

Excessive force.

Daniel went to Cobra Kai. That was bad luck, and the Cobra Kai were wrong to shove him down the hill.

However, after THAT, it was over.

They were done with him. All that happened in late August/early September. They left him alone after that.

It's now 2 months later, and Daniel attacked Johnny.

Unprovoked.

That's on Daniel.

I'm glad this show has given Johnny more perspective.

He's matured.

Now where would other people be in 2019?

Chozen--is there any possible way he could come back? Chozen lost his fight with Daniel. He was Sato's student. He knows Miyagi style karate and was better at it than Daniel. It was only when Daniel stopped fighting defensively and fought with massive offense that the fight turned.

What would have happened to Chozen then? Was his honor satisfied, even in defeat? He challenged Daniel to a fight to the death, and lost. Daniel spared his life. Chozen chose to die, so he didn't chicken out. Would he be even more disgraced or would he be humbled and treat Daniel as a man who saved his life? Based on that movie, I don't think a rematch would help Chozen. Chozen did everything he needed to do to restore his honor in his twisted mind. Chozen's teacher admitted he was wrong, and maybe after that fight, he might go back to Sato and reflect. Honor may actually dictate that he become friends with Daniel, who effectively saved Chozen's life by not sparing him.

If Chozen were to reenter Daniel's life as an enemy, why wait 35 years? It seems more likely that he could enter more as an ally, believe it or not.

An interesting topic?

Will we ever see Mike Barnes and Terry Silver again, assuming the actors want to return?

Terry Silver makes the most sense. He is Kreese's financial backer as well as close friend. It makes more sense. Silver is the type that would absolutely still carry a grudge, and he has more money than Daniel, assuming he didn't go to jail. And maybe he did, which would explain his absence.

Unlike Chozen, Silver wouldn't be able to handle that defeat. He could harbor a grudge and his loyalty to Kreese would still be strong.

But Mike Barnes? He could go either way. People do mature when they get older. Part of what makes the show so good is that Johnny has grown as a person. He never was a total villain as I described above. But Mike Barnes, unlike Johnny, was a jerk. He was a bully. A real one. Unlike Johnny, he had no reason to hate Daniel. Daniel was a stepping stone for his career.

After he lost, Terry Silver and Kreese would have dropped him. Barnes wasn't their friend. He was their business associate.

So I can't see Barnes working with those guys again, when he didn't fulfill his purpose.

Also, 35 years have passed. With Barnes, it could go either way. He could still be a jerk, or he could have changed for the better. Barnes could have gone on to a career in MMA.

It would be very interesting to see where he is in 2020.

And finally we have Julie from Next Karate Kid--another Miyagi student. Daniel would know her of course, and likely they would be friends. Swank may have an Oscar, but she is doing TV today, and I could see her in an episode or two.

 

[Hobbit]

Still a great show. Probably not as good as the first season, and it has a tendency to get melodramatic/soapish at points (which some reviewers aren't happy about) but on the whole I enjoyed it. Going to be very tricky waiting for the next season.

Spoiler

I agree with those that say Robbie would/should be arrested. He's obviously not the only one at fault in that whole fight, but I don't see how he can get away with hurting someone that badly. Did we even see Miguel awake at all after that? Could he be in a coma or something?

I don't know about Demetri beating Hawk. I can see what they were going for, but the way it was done didn't work for me...it just felt unrealistic.

 

[Aragorn]

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There's a 5-minute ESPN 30 for 30 sendup on the 1984 U-18 All Valley Karate Championships within this video.

 

[Tosk]

Most of that initial fight was actually self defense and if you watch it, Johnny used the minimal amount of force to stop Daniel's aggression.

All Daniel did was pick up Ali's boombox. Johnny turned it into a physical altercation.

It was only when Daniel did a sucker punch that Johnny lost his temper.

Does that excuse him kicking the shit out of Daniel? If so, then why doesn't "He lost his temper" count for Daniel too?

Yeah, Daniel is not quite so innocent on all subsequent incidents, but this net myth that "Daniel is the bad guy all along!" has gotten way out of hand. Just like the oft-repeated "illegal kick" baloney.

 

[CorporalClegg]

The 'Daniel was the bad guy' the was started by the biggest cartoon of a sitcom character of the naughts. It should be treated as such.

 

[Kirk Prime]

All Daniel did was pick up Ali's boombox. Johnny turned it into a physical altercation.

Daniel did more than just pick up the boombox. He clearly stuck his nose in a situation that wasn't his business. Picking up the boombox was a provocation on a clearly agitated person. Johnny took the radio back, and used it to shove Daniel down. At this point, Daniel was not hurt--just his pride. Daniel charged at Johnny, who toyed with him, easily avoiding Daniel's charge and tripping him.

Does that excuse him kicking the shit out of Daniel? If so, then why doesn't "He lost his temper" count for Daniel too?

Yes it does. That's self defense. Johnny only used enough force necessary to put Daniel down for good. In the initial confrontation, Johnny only tripped Daniel as Daniel was charging him. One kick to stop it. Embarrassing yes, but Johnny did not hurt him. Johnny thought it was over, and even approached Daniel to make sure it was. "How about you hero? Had enough?" Johnny was NOT attacking at this point. Had Daniel just stayed down, there would have been no more violence. But Daniel hit him with a cheap shot.

It was Daniel who initiated the confrontation, and Daniel who escalated it with a sucker punch. Only when Johnny was hit in the face did he in fact put Daniel down, and even then, he stopped once the threat was no longer in place.

Yeah, Daniel is not quite so innocent on all subsequent incidents, but this net myth that "Daniel is the bad guy all along!" has gotten way out of hand. Just like the oft-repeated "illegal kick" baloney.

First of all, though I can't prove it on this board, I was saying this long before that video came out, and long before How I Met Your Mother. I wish I had a penny for everyone who said something to me when that stuff happened. But anyway, Johnny was not perfect, but Daniel was the aggressor in that initial confrontation, which would have been avoided if Daniel minded his own business.

Ali was handling it.

 

[Tosk]

Daniel was the aggressor in that initial confrontation

Johnny and Ali are having an argument. Johnny grabs her personal property and hurls it to the ground, breaking it. Daniel picks it up. Johnny snatches it from his hands and knocks him down.

Only when Johnny was hit in the face did he in fact put Daniel down

You are incorrect. Johnny trips Daniel twice, and then roundhouse kicks Daniel in the stomach. Daniel had been knocked down four times before he struck Johnny. When he does hit him, Daniel jumps up in a pathetic defensive stance and says "C'mon now we're even, huh?" and extends his hand to shake. So Johnny annihilates him.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Johnny and Ali are having an argument. Johnny grabs her personal property and hurls it to the ground, breaking it. Daniel picks it up. Johnny snatches it from his hands and knocks him down.

Daniel inserted himself in something that wasn't his business. Johnny was clearly agitated over the argument, and told Daniel not to touch the radio initially. He didn't. He grabbed it back, and shoved Daniel with it. On a beach. No one was hurt at this point. Had Daniel not inserted himself into something that was none of his business, nothing happens.

I'm not saying Johnny was right to grab and break the radio. He wasn't. But Daniel was motivated to try to impress a girl, and did something stupid as a result. All those people knew Ali and Johnny and no one interfered. This was an issue between the Johnny and Ali, not Daniel--until Daniel interfered.

You are incorrect. Johnny trips Daniel twice, and then roundhouse kicks Daniel in the stomach. Daniel had been knocked down four times before he struck Johnny. When he does hit him, Daniel jumps up in a pathetic defensive stance and says "C'mon now we're even, huh?" and extends his hand to shake. So Johnny annihilates him.

Johnny tripped Daniel twice, when Daniel came after him. Every time Daniel was down, Johnny left him alone. When Daniel first got up, Johnny prepared himself for a charge, he did nothing offensive. Daniel was the attacker. When Daniel attacked, Johnny tripped him. Daniel got up, and attacked again. He was tripped again, but again, NOT hurt.

It was only when Daniel got up a third time that Johnny decided to end it. And he chose to do so with minimal force. The second Daniel went down from that kick, Johnny backed off. And he also made a gesture to Daniel that he was done, clearly with no intention of continuing the fight. If Daniel had not hit Johnny with a cheap shot, thinking he was all clever playing possum, the fight was over.

You can't hit someone like Daniel did and not expect a retaliation. It wasn't his stance that was pathetic--it was the handshake, which even more cowardly than the sucker punch.

The fight was over before that sucker punch. It was only after Daniel fought dirty that Johnny ended it for good.

 

[Tosk]

He picked up a radio that didn't belong to the guy acting hostile. That son of a bitch!

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.