Cobra Kai - The Karate Kid Saga Continues

Discussion in 'TV & Media' started by Trekker4747, Mar 23, 2018.

  1. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2017
    Sure, but this is actually a fun conversation, and we have a year to kill. I think anything in the KK universe is fair game, and worth talking about.

    Daniel injected himself in a situation that was none of his business, where a physical confrontation would be inevitable. Ali was in no danger, and he was just trying to impress a girl. Was Johnny wrong to break the radio? Yes. He wasn't perfect. He also wasn't the first person to do something stupid in frustration over a girl, who just lied to him. But Daniel had no business at all getting involved there.

    But let's continue.

    Look what happened at the soccer tryouts. I'm not a soccer expert, but Daniel's reaction was overkill. It's clear that Johnny was still upset over Daniel's sucker punch, which was either the night before or just a few days. We can probably assume that it's less than a week later, based on Daniel still having a black eye.

    Were the Cobras wrong to try to single out Daniel? Yes they were.

    But once again, Daniel escalated a situation. Bobby hooked Daniel while he was dribbling the soccer ball. It was not the cleanest play, though if you watch, Bobby was going for the ball, in what is known as a slide tackle. http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/when-is-a-slide-tackle-legal-or-illegal/

    If you watch the clip, and look at the link I just provided, there is nothing inherently dirty about this play.

    If the goal of the Cobra Kai was to hurt Daniel, it clearly was not a good method. The only thing that happened was Daniel fell and lost the ball. If you read that link, and watch the clip, I doubt Bobby even gets a warning here if this were a real game, and even if he did, the worst that could happen is a free kick. It just wasn't that dirty.

    This is no different than a foul in basketball--not even a flagrant foul.

    Despite the conspiracy looks that the Cobra Kai gave each other, Bobby really didn't do anything. If he did, the coach would have said something to Bobby, and he didn't. The coach was not in on it.

    But Daniel reacted violently. Instead of getting up and continuing to play, or wait for the coach, Daniel decided to attack Bobby and punch him in the face. Daniel was once again, the person who escalated the situation. That's why the coach kicked him off the team immediately. Daniel was the team cancer.

    So when Daniel showed up at Cobra Kai, an unfortunate choice of dojos, it became clear to the Cobra Kai that Daniel wanted to escalate the situation even more, and attack them on a future date.

    While forcing him down the hill was not right, it did put an end to the situation. Daniel was not going to join Cobra Kai, and the feud was effectively over.

    Remember, the confrontations on the beach happened just before school started, which means late August/early September.

    We get a little montage at school after that, and nothing happens to Daniel in this time. After the incident on the hill, which again, WAS wrong on the part of the Cobras, the Cobras left Daniel alone.

    The feud was over. It was done.

    They may not have shaken hands and buried the hatchet, but no one bothered Daniel and he was doing all right with Ali. All he had to do at this point was stay away from the Cobras. They were no longer going out of their way to deal with Daniel.

    Until Halloween.

    Halloween is the end of October, so we are talking nearly 2 months where Johnny and the Cobras had nothing to do with Daniel.

    So why would Daniel attack Johnny in the bathroom? How dumb was that? How WRONG was that? Daniel reignited the feud worse than ever, unprovoked, and in his effort to escape, even caused a car accident. Was anyone hurt there? Who paid for the damage?

    We won't know, because after causing that accident, Daniel fled the scene.

    He was absolutely in the wrong there, and while you don't want to see him beaten as badly as he was, the anger of Johnny was absolutely justified.
     
  2. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2001
    Location:
    On the run.
    Sure, but we clearly have a fundamental difference of opinion on what constitutes instigation, escalation, and overreaction. You see most Cobra moves as "putting an end to it" and most Daniel moves as escalation. And that's fine, just that for the most part I don't agree.

    Daniel lost his temper. I thought that made it okay? ;)

    Because he's an absolute idiot. (And I say that as someone who once did something similar with a bully of mine.) The reason he does it is because Ali talks to him about facing things head on, and that she'd love to be there when Johnny gets a dose of his own medicine. Regardless of the reason though, it is not a good decision, we don't disagree on that one.

    Where we disagree is whether or not absolutely brutalizing Daniel (five on one!) was a reasonable response. Even Bobby thinks it went too far. Bobby ain't so bad deep down. :)
     
  3. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2017
    That's fine. But there is a certain level of force one can use in a fight to make sure the danger is gone. Daniel inserted himself into a situation that was none of his business. It's not like Johnny approached Daniel at any point. Daniel started the confrontation by picking up the radio. Johnny's initial shove, while not right, was minimal. Daniel got up and attacked multiple times. Johnny kicked him exactly once to stop the attacks. He did not aggressively pursue Daniel until Daniel sucker punched him.

    Johnny and the Cobras did some things that were wrong, but Daniel did too and was no less culpable, and in fact MORE culpable.

    When Johnny lost his temper, he broke a radio, and that was wrong. Johnny got angry at Daniel after the sucker punch and used an appropriate amount of force to end the fight--something he could have done from the very beginning, but restrained himself until the sucker punch. A better equivalent to what Daniel did on the soccer field would have been Johnny KOing Daniel without explanation immediately upon Daniel picking up the radio. Like Daniel punching Bobby, that wouldn't have been justified.

    The key is that the whole thing was over after 2 months. Had Daniel not done that, he wouldn't have liked the Cobras, but he would never have taken that brutal beating and never would have needed Miyagi to teach him. Never entered the tournament, and likely would have started dating Ali anyway.

    I think the pursuit of Daniel was an expected response, as was the initial attack. But once Daniel was incapable of defending himself, they should have stopped, and you're right, Bobby recognized that.

    Bobby definitely was not such a bad guy. And I don't think Johnny was either. Johnny was a good kid who had been bad, but wanted to change himself--but Daniel brought out the worst in him with his actions.

    Dutch was a douche though.
     
  4. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2001
    Location:
    On the run.
    That's fer damn sure!

    And I'm not so fond of Susan either, but that's a discussion for another day. ;)
     
  5. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2017
    Susan was sort of obnoxious, but she did put Daniel in his place at the right time.
     
  6. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Location:
    Escaped from Delta Vega
    Not sure if you are kidding around (like the video which spaked this entire "Daniel was villain" idea), but in case you are being serious...

    ...but that was no benign form of harassment; Daniel forced to fall down a steep hill could have meant the end of his life. Realistically, Daniel had grounds to go to the police and have Johnny and his thugs arrested for that. Nothing that happed before that incident justifies sending a teenager tumbling down a hill.

    Having water poured on your head does not justify attempted murder--which Johnny was a moment away from committing when the already severely injured Daniel was held up for what was going to be Johnny's "no mercy" kick to Daniel's head. Again, the Cobra Kai gang should have been arrested and charged with attempted murder.
     
  7. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2017
    He would never have been able to prove who did it.

    The level of the beating may not have been justified, but Daniel was 100 percent at fault for what happened. Daniel caused the whole incident. Again, they left him alone for two months. Daniel was the one who had the initial confrontation with them. They never even would have noticed Daniel if he never picked up the radio and confronted Johnny to impress a girl. Daniel slugged Bobby on the soccer field. That was not justified.

    And Daniel picked that fight on Halloween, caused a car accident, and then fled the scene of a crime. Talk about police incidents--if the police got involved, Daniel also would have been arrested.

    I agree with you that the force was excessive but Daniel was not innocent.
     
  8. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Location:
    Escaped from Delta Vega
    It would ne be too hard; Daniel, his new friends and Ali all have been witnesses for various confrontations between Daniel and his tormentors. Further, if he lived to actually tell the police, they would investigate the scene of the assault, see the motorcycle tracks and it would not be too difficult to conclude that his tormentors--who just so happen to use motorcycles as their main mode of transportation (which every witness can confirm)--were at fault.

    Daniel picking up the boom box did not justify Johnny saying, "Don't touch it, punk!", then using the radio to hit/shove Daniel to the sand. Johnny was the initial aggressor and was looking for a reason to escalate the situation.

    At best, he would have been charged with what? Negligence? His vision was partially obstructed by the shower curtain rig, and he was running. Yes, he poured water on Johnny, but at the end of it all, the Cobra Kais beating Daniel into near unconsciousness and Johnny delivering the Miyagi-prevented death kick would have sent Kreese's prize students to jail.
     
  9. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2017
    I don't know if in 1984 they would have had these sophisticated methods. But let's just say that's possible, there's still Daniel's culpability. Yes, it went too far, but Daniel is not innocent.

    Actually, it absolutely did. Daniel inserted himself in a hostile situation, knowing full well that he was dealing with an angry person, and then provoked him.

    Daniel was just trying to impress a girl, and knew exactly what he was doing.

    Daniel assaulted Johnny with the hose. He created the situation himself, and is guilty of all the mayhem that happened after. That included causing a car accident and leaving the scene of that accident.

    You're right that Miyagi saved Johnny as much as Daniel.
     
  10. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Location:
    Escaped from Delta Vega
    Matching tire tracks was a very old law enforcement investigative tool by 1984, so they would have been able to match the tracks to the assailants' motorcycles.

    Daniel did not lay a hand on Johnny, so Johnny committed assault. He was completely at fault by putting his hands on someone who was not a threat to him at all.

    Running water is not assault. If Daniel whipped him with the hose, then you would have a point, but all Johnny got was wet hair, which did not justify trying to murder Daniel--which is exactly what Johnny and his thigs tried to do.


    It was unintentional. Johnny needed to be arrested, but for a start, Miyagi defending Daniel was medicine Johnny and his thugs needed for a very long time.
     
  11. Aragorn

    Aragorn Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
  12. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2001
    Location:
    On the run.
    Aussie Blu-ray of season one coming out next month. Woot!
     
  13. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2017
    Watch that fight again. Johnny did not put his hands on Daniel at all. As Daniel charged him, every move Johnny used was defensive until Daniel sucker punched him.

    Daniel inserted himself in a hostile situation that was none of his business. While Johnny was wrong to break the radio, Daniel should have kept out of it. He escalated the situation by provoking an already agitated person who wouldn't have even paid him any mind if he hadn't done so.

    While you could argue Johnny shouldn't have pushed Daniel, and again, there isn't a black and white answer, it was Daniel who first charged at Johnny. Had Daniel simply walked away here, he may have been embarrassed, but he wouldn't have had the fight. Part of Miyagi's own lessons was that karate was for defense only. Had Daniel known that at the time, he would have simply stayed down, the whole confrontation would have ended without a beating.

    It was Daniel that got up and charged Johnny. But for Johnny's expert take down of Daniel, without even using his hands, Daniel could have punched Johnny. Johnny only was using defensive moves at this point. Yes, he taunted Daniel, but at this point, Daniel was an enemy who confronted him.

    After Daniel's attack failed, Daniel got up again, and tried to attack Johnny a second time. Again, Johnny merely tripped him, keeping him off balance, but did not hurt him.

    It was only the third time Daniel got up that Johnny actually kicked him. But again, one kick. That's it. Johnny could have finished him, but didn't. From Johnny's point of view, the fight was over. Johnny could have killed Daniel easily. But that wasn't what he wanted. He just wanted to talk to Ali. Daniel escalated the situation.

    At this point, Johnny walks over to Daniel, clearly NOT aggressively. He may have been a little cocky, but he was NOT looking to fight anymore. It was then that Daniel sucker punched him, and Johnny had to end it.


    By any definition, what Daniel did to Johnny was absolutely an assault. An assault is any unwanted contact or touching. If someone shoots you, that's an assault. Throwing water on someone is an assault. Throwing paint on a fur coat is an assault. What Daniel did to Johnny, unprovoked, was an assault. And while yes, there came a point where the Cobras went too far, the whole incident, not to mention leaving the scene of an accident, was Daniel's fault. The whole causality of the situation was due to Daniel's immature desire to attack Johnny when Johnny was done with him.

    If you jump in a lion's den, and get mauled, that's not a surprise. What Daniel did was pure Darwinism.

    In fairness, by that logic, Daniel deserved a beating for what he did to Johnny. You're right--it went too far. Of course it did. Johnny was incensed, and several of the Cobras were psycho, like Dutch (who actually does end up in jail). And Miyagi stepping in there was a good thing. Daniel may have been at fault, but shouldn't have been murdered. There should have been several arrests made, and Daniel deserved to be arrested too, notably for causing a car accident and leaving the scene. He wasn't innocent.
     
  14. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Location:
    Escaped from Delta Vega
    Johnny slammed the boom box into Daniel, and shoved him to the sand. Utterly unjustified. Johnny assaulted Daniel, which escalated the conflict.

    None of that justified assault, and as the one who committed physical harm, he opened the door to everything to follow.


    That would not hold up in court. The first question would be, "how did this start?" and from there, Johnny would have to do more than claim being emotional in slamming a stereo into / shoving Daniel to the ground.


    So by your definition, Johnny (and his friends) would be charged with multiple counts of assault.

    America's prisons are filled with people who believed they had a "right" to give a beating to others. Now, they know how those tables are turned, and in ways they cannot control or "badass" their way out of.

    Was it worth it? No. Street/animal "law" is answered with a cage, as it should be.

    Daniel was not "fleeing the scene of an accident" in the sense of a driver who consciously hits another car or pedestrian, then drives off. Daniel was in survival mode from the second he exited the restroom, and was trying to save his own life, but it says much that Johnny and his friends--with the exception of one--had no problem parroting the "no mercy" line and attempting murder. That's who they were at the core.
     
    Skipper likes this.