Cobra Kai - The Karate Kid Saga Continues

[Owain Taggart]

It didn’t get quite so over the top until the end of season 2.

Yeah, my reaction was based on what had happened over Seasons 2 and 3. There comes a point where you wonder how he keeps getting away with it. And your point about camera phones is a good one. Someone could easily film him and report him, so why hasn't this happened yet?? This is why I feel it's so incredibly frustrating at times. There would be enough evidence to put him away. And yet, he's the one putting out a restraining order. Puh-lease!

Well, I realized that this show is set in an alternate universe when

Spoiler

Hawk broke his friend's arm with no consequence whatever

It was really too much.

That too! It's really over the top.

Spoiler

Also when Miguel gets beat down to a bloody pulp again during the house fight right after he'd made a major recovery. I was like WTF Dude, give the guy a break!

 

[fireproof78]

They're trying to make him sympathetic by showing that he hesitated in Vietnam and someone died. Doesn't work, he's had 50 years to adjust.

Only if he sought help. Which, most did not, and seeking help by American veterans continues to be an issue. It's more realistic than simply going "Go get help." That cuts against what they were taught, and what they experienced as the country turned their back on these veterans. It was one of my educational moments of talking with my uncle and seeing him with other Vietnam veterans. They trusted each other, but didn't always trust others. My uncle was lucky in that he served in the Army after the war and was able to acclimate.

Overall, I think Cobra Kai strikes a weird balance. It isn't totally believable (especially the over the top school fight) but Creese's psychological trauma is the one part that is more believable than most.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Only if he sought help. Which, most did not, and seeking help by American veterans continues to be an issue. It's more realistic than simply going "Go get help." That cuts against what they were taught, and what they experienced as the country turned their back on these veterans. It was one of my educational moments of talking with my uncle and seeing him with other Vietnam veterans. They trusted each other, but didn't always trust others. My uncle was lucky in that he served in the Army after the war and was able to acclimate.

Overall, I think Cobra Kai strikes a weird balance. It isn't totally believable (especially the over the top school fight) but Creese's psychological trauma is the one part that is more believable than most.

Traumatized soldiers may have trouble trusting other people, but you don't see a lot of them psychopathically manipulating children to mercilessly beat each other up to win a war started 40 years ago in a regional karate tournament.

If he was telling the truth that he was doing what he did because he really cared about those kids and thought mercy got people killed he wouldn't be constantly ejecting them from his class. He's basically Admiral Cain from NuBSG.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Overall, I think Cobra Kai strikes a weird balance. It isn't totally believable (especially the over the top school fight) but Creese's psychological trauma is the one part that is more believable than most.

In context, yes, it's quite believable, but it's the way it's being used to draw sympathy that I feel is an issue. Clearly, he's a tortured individual; he's damaged goods. He's clearly funneling his anger on the students, using them as an offensive and making them them a danger. It's completely at odds with how Rambo is portrayed in the first Rambo movie, for instance, where in contrast he just wants to be left alone after being harrassed by the police officer. He'd never initiated it and retaliated in dire straits. Here we see a Vietnam vet going on the offensive and training teens to be ruthless at any cost. The message to me behind that is whacked.

IMHO, I don't feel Kreese should be allowed near children.

 

[fireproof78]

Traumatized soldiers may have trouble trusting other people, but you don't see a lot of them psychopathically manipulating children to mercilessly beat each other up to win a war started 40 years ago in a regional karate tournament.

That's not the point, at least to my mind. More a matter of trying to impress upon these children the reality of the world because no one else taught him that. It's not trying to win the war; it's trying assert control over a world he feels doesn't make sense.

In context, yes, it's quite believable, but it's the way it's being used to draw sympathy that I feel is an issue. Clearly, he's a tortured individual; he's damaged goods. He's clearly funneling his anger on the students, using them as an offensive and making them them a danger. It's completely at odds with how Rambo is portrayed in the first Rambo movie, for instance, where in contrast he just wants to be left alone after being harrassed by the police officer.

I never felt it was meant as sympathy, but more understanding of his perspective. And, as I state above, he is looking for a means of control based upon what happened to him in Vietnam.

 

[Owain Taggart]

I never felt it was meant as sympathy, but more understanding of his perspective. And, as I state above, he is looking for a means of control based upon what happened to him in Vietnam.

I was referring to what @JirinPanthosa said earlier about it trying to draw some sympathy for his character. And if he really is looking for a means of control, I think he needs to look elsewhere, a different hobby, one where he doesn't amass an army of traumatized kids. Someone needs to stand up to him, knock him down a peg, as it's ridiculous what he's been allowed to get away with.

 

[fireproof78]

I was referring to what @JirinPanthosa said earlier about it trying to draw some sympathy for his character. And if he really is looking for a means of control, I think he needs to look elsewhere, a different hobby, one where he doesn't amass an army of traumatized kids. Someone needs to stand up to him, knock him down a peg, as it's ridiculous what he's been allowed to get away with.

Sympathy will largely depend on the viewer. Yes, I find sympathy with Creese. No I don't think he should keep doing what he is doing. I believe that is the point of the story.

"If he really is seeking control?" What else would he be seeking through his manipulations, especially of Johnny and Hawk?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

You can empathize with what he went through without sympathizing with a single thing he's doing.

I don't see a person with PTSD just trying to adjust, I see a sociopath who delights in controlling people.

If Hawk had showed up as Eli Moscowitz, a guy whose life revolves around people making fun of a physical deformity, while Creese was in charge and not Johnny. He would never have become Hawk, he would have gotten savagely assaulted and kicked out on his butt.

 

[fireproof78]

You can empathize with what he went through without sympathizing with a single thing he's doing.

I don't see a person with PTSD just trying to adjust, I see a sociopath who delights in controlling people.
.

As I said, it depends on the viewer. He has PTSD but his adjustment was becoming controlling people, to the point that he no longer feels empathy for others. To feel means to show weakness, and showing weakness means returning back to the VC prison camp. Now, it isn't about adjustment but survival. He has adjusted; poorly and negatively.

None of which excuses what he has done but he makes for a good villain that when Larusso uses the Myagi techniques to disable the audience is to cheer the defeat of the villain. Storytelling at its finest

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think you can empathize with his truama without empathizing with his actions.

Even if he became controlling and manipulating as a coping mechanism, he's had 50 years to realize how badly he's hurting innocent people who don't deserve it and chosen to ignore it.

 

[Owain Taggart]

And there may come a point where he's using the Vietnam Vet angle as an excuse to lash out. Which is why I felt the whole part of that story felt like it was too little too late, IMHO. He was already a monster before they showed all that. Yeah, he may make for a good villain, but it's rather a bit much and rather extreme.

If he truly wanted to help people, he'd maybe realize the need to tone things down, but he just keeps pushing harder and harder.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I watched through S3e9.

Kind of an 'Of course' moment that the moment he gets together with Miguel's mom and finally has a functional loving relationship in his life Ari immediately shows up and he puts it at risk.

This is Bojack level self destruction here. For all his desire to make himself a better person he still sees his old flame and can't muster the words 'Just so you know I'm seeing someone'.

I like the way they wrote Robbie that he can't see that he's way better off being in and out of prison than he would have been on the run for the rest of his life and blames Daniel. A shame there's a sociopath looking for just that kind of person to recruit.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Come to think of it, there are a LOT of Bojack Horseman/Johnny Lawrence parallels and the biggest behavioral distinction is Johnny’s addictions don’t go any farther than crappy beer.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Now I'm in the middle of the season 3 finale.

This has progressed to full on indisputable felony. Breaking and entering, home invasion, aggravated assault. PLEASE let this end with realistic consequences.

Edit after finishing the episode: It was great to see Hawk turn back to the good side, but how the hell are no felony charges being made against those kids?!

 

[Owain Taggart]

This has progressed to full on indisputable felony. Breaking and entering, home invasion, aggravated assault. PLEASE let this end with realistic consequences.

Yeah, I hope you see what I've meant. At first it's fine, but I feel it got progressively worse across season 3. I'm kind of looking forward to the reaction from Daniel and his wife and the implications of what it will mean in the grand scheme of things when they come to see the damage caused in their own home. I feel that because the show is named for the Cobra Kai, it's been slanted in their favour of getting away with things. It's no longer really fairly balanced. At the very least, there needs to be a storyline where an investigation is made by the police that result in charges being dealt to Kreese for letting it get so out of control.

And while Jonnny's intentions may have originally been good in the beginning, in wanting to help people from being bullied, I certainly don't feel the same way about Kreese who instead seems to be using it as a weapon.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, the suspension of disbelief regarding legal consequences is amazing. I would hope for some legal drama but it will come down to a tournament. But, I still thoroughly enjoyed that final battle between Larusso and Creese. The rest of the season was up and down, but compared to Season 2 I found it a bit more enjoyable.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Creese was really trying to kill them at the Dojo, and if he did he might have been able to claim castle doctrine.

It'd be interesting to see the attempts to charge him too. It's not just their word against his now, it's all the kids words against all the kids words and Hawk would be the only one willing to testify that Creese told him to invade Daniel's home.

I have a hard time blaming Johnny for this. His only real mistake was trusting Creese. I lay more of the blame on Daniel for being so bitter about the past he created a competing dojo.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Daniel definitely needs to have a character growth moment this coming season. His life has been too good for too long and has become complacent in his uniform success. Creese is a clear and present danger to both him and Johnny. They both need to bury the past and unify to survive.

 

[Owain Taggart]

It'd be interesting to see the attempts to charge him too. It's not just their word against his now, it's all the kids words against all the kids words and Hawk would be the only one willing to testify that Creese told him to invade Daniel's home.

Especially when the biggest piece of evidence against Kreese's ways is Miguel entering a coma after the fight at the school. He's the one that IMHO suffered the most due to Johnny following Kreese's dogma, one that he was incredibly lucky to have recovered from, but the fact that he entered a coma in the first place should be enough evidence of the danger occurring, which Kreese has been leaning heavily into.

His life has been too good for too long and has become complacent in his uniform success.

I don't know if I'd call him complacent. He had no reason to believe anything was out of sort until Johnny went and re-created the old Dojo, igniting a decades old rivalry. Remember, when we first start to see Johnny, he's still clutching the grudge. Daniel was just minding his own business at that point and was reluctant to take part in it, until the danger affected his family directly. This is kind of mirrored in the fact that nostalgia doesn't kick in until the very last moments of Season 1. The only reason Daniel recreated Miyagi's dojo was as a direct response to the incoming threat that was now invading his home turf. But yeah, I do think the alliance will do them some good. I was actually kind of hoping it would happen sooner than Season 4.

The way I see it, Kreese came along when Johnny was feeling vulnerable and took advantage of it for his own gain.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Especially when the biggest piece of evidence against Kreese's ways is Miguel entering a coma after the fight at the school. He's the one that IMHO suffered the most due to Johnny following Kreese's dogma, one that he was incredibly lucky to have recovered from, but the fact that he entered a coma in the first place should be enough evidence of the danger occurring, which Kreese has been leaning heavily into.

Ironically Miguel entering the coma might be the most vindicating thing about Kreese's way. Remember that if Miguel hadn't shown mercy, maybe Robbie would have gotten a concussion or broken bone and that's it.

The biggest piece of evidence against Kreese's ways is the home invasion, Dmitri's broken arm, Tory constantly switching from fists to deadly weapons, and putting a poisonous snake in a car.

Daniel had good intentions, he wasn't wrong to train Robbie. It's when he expanded and declared war on Johnny's Cobra Kai that he set the chain reaction in motion to put two tribes of karate trained children at war with each other.