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Clean Slate: Design the Bridge

Uh... what about the whole "clean-slate, design-the-bridge-from-scratch" thing?
Well, the thing that set that little distraction off was my comment that as far as I'm concerned, the direction that the bridge faces, relative to the orientation of travel of the ship, is irrelevant. So I THINK we're still, technically, discussing that point...
 
Plus, we've had statements from Bob Justman and David Gerrold that as far as they were concerned at the time the show was actually being made that the bridge faced forward.
Justman, I'd tend to listen to... since he was involved in the production. Gerrold... sorry, I couldn't care less what he has to say on this topic. I like the guy, I like his writing for the most part... but he had no inside knowledge of that topic whatsoever, did he? I'm not familiar with any comment from either, anyway. Can you provide a quotation or link for either, making the comment you're associating with them?
Which still begs the question of why anyone would design a bridge like that and not have it face forward. The nub on the back of the dome was on the back of the dome to preserve the symmetry of the model, in those instances where the reversed decals were used, not to make a statement about the internal arrangement of the ship.
Well, that's quite a leap of logic. I don't seem to recall any point where we saw a "reversed-angle view" where the "nub" could be seen, anyway.

As for it "begging the question," I take it you didn't read, or didn't agree with, the solution I have for that topic (see my earlier post)?
Frankly, if they did consider the bridge to be facing 36 degrees to port, that would've been an even easier shot to set up with that zoom-in; just use that angle from behind and slightly to the right of the command chair, and that'd line up the turbolift almost perfectly with the nub on the back of the dome. The fact that they didn't do that speaks volumes.
Look... we KNOW why the set got rearranged... to make it easier to do "over the shoulder" shots of the captain and the lift door (as well as the comm station, engineering station, navigator, helm, and even science stations), so that a single camera setup could show more than it could in the originally-intended arrangement.

Can we all agree on that point? It was intended to be "linear" but they rearranged it to make filming easier. Agreed?
He never produced a drawing showing the relationship between the bridge interior and the exterior hull, and the only centerline shown in the bridge layout runs from the main viewscreen to communications. It's the turbolift that's off the centerline, not the main viewscreen.
Nonsense. Jefferies did the cross-section sketch that we've all seen... you too, many times... which clearly shows that "nub" being the uppermost level of the main lift shaft.

You've spent ages, and a ton of effort, arguing against that because it doesn't seem logical to you. Fine... you can reinvent things in your own "personal canon" to submerge the bridge a deck lower, but realize, what you're doing is no less a "reinvention of Jefferies" than what we're seeing on-screen with this new movie. And I object to both approaches, for the very same reason.

There is no doubt... based upon Jefferies' own sketches... that he intended the "nub" to be the lift shaft. And also based upon his own sketches, that shaft was on the centerline of the ship.
 
(as, indeed, it doesn't in TOS).

The writers and producers who actually worked on the show would differ with you on that. As far as they were concerned, it DID face forward. The placement of the turbolift was a non issue.

I don't think that's true. In Matt Jefferies's Phase II redesign, he added a second "nub" behind the bridge to represent the second turbolift. So clearly it was his specific intention that the "nub" at the very rear of the bridge represented the lift; therefore, to him, the viewscreen was facing 36 degrees to port.

No, that was MJ fixing the contradiction to...

1. Get the bridge facing forward and fitting properly as originally intended, after the sets were fudged for dramatic reasons.

2. Fix the whole issue with there being only one turbolift.

All this was after the fact. It was essentially MJ doing it again, but better. Once again, the bridge faced forward logically. The bridge offset issue never came up that we can tell during the original series.
 
Good grief, this is a silly thing to waste so many words on. We're arguing over thirty-six little degrees. I'm sorry I got dragged into it.
 
Good grief, this is a silly thing to waste so many words on. We're arguing over thirty-six little degrees. I'm sorry I got dragged into it.

THERE IS NO NEED TO GET EMOTIONAL DAMMIT! :scream::scream::scream:

...Seriously though, I think we did pretty good this time. Very little angry sarcasm this time around. :lol:

Back on topic...

My only non-trek ship bridge is completely circular with no 'forward' or 'aft'. Also, since the ship is essentially just a flying saucer, it has no forward or aft either. The ship can thusly fly in any given direction without turning around. Convenient!
 
My only non-trek ship bridge is completely circular with no 'forward' or 'aft'. Also, since the ship is essentially just a flying saucer, it has no forward or aft either. The ship can thusly fly in any given direction without turning around. Convenient!

You raise an interesting point. The argument that a spacecraft's control room should or should not face "forward" has meaning only when the spacecraft control room's "up vector" is perpendicular to the spacecraft's direction of flight.

A spacecraft with a control room "up vector" parallel to the spacecraft's direction of flight cannot face forward. :p
 
My only non-trek ship bridge is completely circular with no 'forward' or 'aft'. Also, since the ship is essentially just a flying saucer, it has no forward or aft either. The ship can thusly fly in any given direction without turning around. Convenient!

You raise an interesting point. The argument that a spacecraft's control room should or should not face "forward" has meaning only when the spacecraft control room's "up vector" is perpendicular to the spacecraft's direction of flight.

A spacecraft with a control room "up vector" parallel to the spacecraft's direction of flight cannot face forward. :p

Didn't I mention that in a post of mine up thread?;)
 
You did. D'OH! I guess I lost track of the on-topic posts. :p

What about the main viewscreen? Although it's capable of displaying useful information, it has most often been used as a virtual window. Is this useful for anyone but the CO? Sulu and Chekov's information displays alone were hardly adequate for their tasks, but a virtual window isn't much help either. Why not enlarge the helm and navigation consoles to incorporate more capable visual displays?
 
You're right. You have to admit that it's odd that arguably the two most important stations on the bridge have the least amount of controls and readouts.
 
You did. D'OH! I guess I lost track of the on-topic posts. :p

What about the main viewscreen? Although it's capable of displaying useful information, it has most often been used as a virtual window. Is this useful for anyone but the CO? Sulu and Chekov's information displays alone were hardly adequate for their tasks, but a virtual window isn't much help either. Why not enlarge the helm and navigation consoles to incorporate more capable visual displays?
I've always assumed that the helmsman's "displays" were primarily the main viewscreen (which is, after all, normally under his control) and the "astrogator." If you assume that they're really there for him, and secondarily for the captain, then it makes sense (although, as I suggested, I think that the "astrogator" was placed a bit awkwardly on the 1701 and should hold a much more prominent position... more making it more like what you see on the C-57D).
 
Forget all that has been established about starship bridges. It's 2008, and you've been tasked with designing a control facility for a sci-fi spaceship having Star Trek-level technology. Based on current and speculative technologies, what would the bridge look like? What would its capabilities be?

Think outside the box. Would it be circular? Would people sit in front of physical push-button controls, flat-panel screens, or something else? Would people use TV set-style visual displays? Would there be an enormous TV set at the front of the room? What would the stations be? Would there even need to be a single control room? What about something virtual and/or holodeck-based?
Okay, instead of starting with shapes and colors and so forth, I think you really need to think about FUNCTIONS and PURPOSES. Don't you agree?

So let's see. What primary functions need to be handled from the bridge?

1) Steering (aka "helm")
2) Course planning... "cartography and maps" if you like... aka "navigation." Which really does need to be a separate function, as far as I'm concerned (contrary to TNG).
3) Weapons and defense command and control.
4) External communications.
5) Ship's status monitoring.
6) "Mission status" monitoring (configurable depending on what's going on... ie, a station to track landing party operations, or starmapping operations, or whatever else).
7) Intelligence (already-processed data from external sensors and so forth).
8) Commanding officer's station.

Each of these stations would be manned 24 hours a day, seven days a week, with the possible exception of the "mission status" one which would only be manned (and operational) when required for a particular purpose.

The status displays would include a "main viewer" as well as a separate "navigational display" and a separate "ship's status board." These would all be big, and would be visible by the commanding officer and helmsman at all times, and would be visible by anyone else on the bridge with minimal effort.

Each and every workstation should be visible to the commanding officer, with minimal effort (ie, he shouldn't have to go walking around to see what's going on at any workstation).

Most workstations, however, would face away from the main screen, because the people working at those stations shouldn't be watching the "big screen" but rather should be focusing on their own jobs without distraction. They shouldn't be watching the commanding officer, either.

SO... I really, REALLY like the circular arrangement with the captain in the middle, and with the helmsman in the middle and in front of the captain. It really does make just a ton of practical sense.

The orientation of the bridge (ie, facing forward or at some odd angle or even facing directly rearwards) makes absolutely no difference. It's the INTERNAL arrangement that matters, and the "bridge front faces ship front" argument is nonsensical.

Practically, the bridge would be near the core of the ship, rather than on-top. The only real advantage of having the bridge on top would be if you planned to use it as a lifeboat, so the captain could evacuate his crew and still have a chance of surviving at the last moment. However, I see this as being a very "slim" argument for having it on top.

There are a few other things I'd do as well.

1) Every single crewman would have a seat... a SECURED, SEAT-BELT-EQUIPPED SEAT.

2) Every single workstation would have a locker for emergency gear (breathing apparatus, emergency pressure suit, etc).

3) There would be a security station near the entranceway, which would always be manned. This security station would block direct access to the bridge and would have, among other things, a small-arms locker.

4) There would be a secondary accessway, lockable from inside and in plain sight (say, near the main viewer... maybe in the decking just in front of it) to preclude anyone ever "sneaking in."

5) There would be an attached "wardroom" including a bathroom, a small "dining area" and casual duty stations for a few "replacement" crewmen who would be able to cover for anyone who had to briefly leave their station for a meal or a bathroom break. This would be on the inside of the security barrier, of course, not outside.

6) There wouldn't be a "captain's ready room" or whatever. That's just silly, AFAIK. No ship is so big that the captain can't do that stuff in his cabin. Especially not a starship with super-duper-turbo-lifts.

7) It would only be as large as necessary for clear viewing and for all the folks to actually do their jobs... no larger.

Form follows function, in other words.

Now... more details on individual workstations?

1) The captain's station. This would be a seated station, with a programmable console with a display. Something along the lines of a small laptop computer, though probably configured a bit differently. I'd set it up as a comfortable chair with a fold-over-in-front console.

2) The helm station. This would have a console with two major sections... one for "manual flying" and one for "programmed flying." The manual one might well include a joystick/throttle/rudder ("HOTAS") arrangement. I'd have these on a console that rotates in front of the fixed helm chair, which would always be facing "front."

3) The navigation display would be to one side of the main viewer and would, normally, be watched just as much (probably moreso, in fact) than the viewer itself. It would be a spherical holographic "tank" which would project a volume of space, with iconic rpresentations. It might also include a regular 2D rectangular screen as a secondary supplement (ie, to give information about particular items). The navigator's station would be adjacent to that, facing the "tank," but the entire thing would be visible to the helmsman and captain at all times as well.

4) You notice I left out "engineering" at all. Well, not really... the "ship's status" station would serve this role. There's absolutely no point to controlling the engines or life support or whatever from the bridge, but you do want to MONITOR those things. So this station, with it's big displays, would be to the opposite side of the main display. It would provide information feedback, and a junior engineer would man it at all times, primarily to give information to the captain but not to actually DO anything.

5) Next would be the two entryways. They would be symmetrical. One would lead to the rest of the ship. This one would have a "security lobby" and would have the bridge security station as a part of it. On the other side would be the exit to the "wardroom" I mentioned before. The idea here is that no one would be able to enter or exit the bridge without the captain, the helmsman, and the security officer from being able to see who they were and what they were doing.

6) Next, you'd have the mission station. The "mission" station might well be broken up two or more workstations... probably near the midline of the bridge... just aft of the two "entryways." This would make it relatively easy for the captain to watch the main indicators of the ship's status while keeping the "mission" stuff in his peripheral vision... no need to turn around.

Finally, just aft of there, and adjacent, would be the intelligence station and communication station. Intelligence is the equivalent of Spock's station, which I always thought was misnamed when it was called the "science station." You might call it "sensors control and monitoring" or you might call it "intelligence" but it's not a laboratory, so "science" is really incorrect. The captain would not normally need to be aware of what was happening at these stations, so they'd be behind him. If anything came up that was particularly important, he could turn around, of course, but normally, they'd be giving him verbal feedback and that would be enough. They, also, have no need to be watching the main displays at the front under most circumstances.

The bridge should be secure... should be potentially self-sufficient (see my prior comment re: breathers and vac-suits, and the weapons locker), and should cover only the "higher functions" of the ship. Science labs, conference rooms, personal office space, engineering controls, etc... or non-critical mission-associated operations... should occur elsewhere in the ship.

That's how I'd design a bridge.

Honestly, I think that the TOS bridge is pretty damned close to this, and later bridges generally deviated from it... being better-suited for storytelling, perhaps (one set covers many purposes) while making a lot less practical sense.

Anyway... dig in and pick my commentary apart if you guys like. :)

Ok coming into this conversion late. I like most of your points with a couple small exceptions. 24/7 manning of stations is not required for some stations and situations.
Ex: Navigation does not need to be manned 24/7 if your going to be in orbit for a week. Helm, yes, but not navigation.

Replacement crew men on stand by. Not needed. If the situation is dire enough that the station cannot go unmanned long enough to use the bathroom/get a meal then they should not be excused from their post to begin with. Besides, in most cases you will have a complimentary teaming of duty stations that can share roles in these circumstances, such as helm covering for navigation etc.
Otherwise, I like your ideas.

I will make one comment on bridge orientation. Even without outside influence from ships maneuvers there will be things on board that will give an impression of "forward" and "aft". Machinery vibration basically. How many times have we read about the "thrum of the engines" in the lit? I know on a modern cruise ship working in the computer room buried in the locational center of the ship, even lake like conditions in port areas, I could tell which direction the ship was moving. And yes, ships do move in reverse when lining up with passenger gangways. Hehe, cruise ships even have thrusters to control the ship!

Now, some things mentioned in this thread start to move beyond "Clean Slate" and into changing the conceit of Star Trek ship design. Location of the bridge in trek is always in the middle of a large set of concentric circles on the outer surface of the ship (target anyone?). Location is purely for dubious dramatic purposes as someone wanted an obvious visible location. I share Cary's view that a more practical location would have been somewhere near the center of mass. This is from a survival of command structure perspective. Put all of your non combat related areas on the outer edges of the ship such as staterooms and rec areas. Let the enemy blast away at bedroom sets all they want.
Someone mentioned up thread that their ship would be a disk to make turning easier. Nice, but you're "thinking in 2 dimensions". The ideal shape (barring "warp dynamics") is the sphere, for the reason you mentioned (minimal maneuvering radius) plus the most volume in the least space. it also simplifies weapon placement for maximum degrees of fire.
This makes for an un-sexy ship for cinematic purposes, so what if we apply some of this thinking to the star trek design ethos? It might look something like this:
(excuse the crudity of this image)

nextship.png


Here we have a design using 2 main hulls in the popular Star Trek "disc" shape, I have varied the size and shape in relation to each other just for a little visual impact. The bridge is the white cap on the lower hull. Sandwiched more safely between the masses of the two hulls, but still visually accessible for the "camera". the double hull arrangement allows for better firing arcs without the obstructions of warp pylons and drives. the double hulls also help protect against the "exposed neck and pylon" argument many have about the connie design when debating combat ability while preserving Gene's design ethos regarding sight line of warp nacelles and the ejection there of.

Oh, and since we are bringing up operational procedures, VACSUITS SHALL BE WORN DURING ALL YELLOW AND RED ALERTS!. So many needlessly dead Starfleet personnel.
 
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I like most of your points with a couple small exceptions. 24/7 manning of stations is not required for some stations and situations.
Ex: Navigation does not need to be manned 24/7 if your going to be in orbit for a week. Helm, yes, but not navigation.
I don't agree, though I can see why you'd think that.

You're probably thinking that the only purpose of this station would be to plot courses. But that's not what I'm thinking of. Maybe a better way to look at this would be to rename/repurpose it?

So... think "Stellar Cartography," (but not in the odd way that was handled on-screen, first in "Generations" and later in "Voyager.")

The purpose of this is not merely to figure out how to get from here to there, but also to keep track of what's going on, in a universe which is in no way "static," but instead is always changing.

Does that make more sense to you?
Replacement crew men on stand by. Not needed. If the situation is dire enough that the station cannot go unmanned long enough to use the bathroom/get a meal then they should not be excused from their post to begin with.
Absolutely not... I can't agree with this. When an emergency happens... it's not normally announced in advance.

You don't want a sudden "mysterious unknown force" to suddenly appear in the path of the ship, and the helm station to be unattended because Sulu's in the head. You never know when the Hand of Apollo might pop up, after all...

Oh, and by the way... we've seen plenty of other situation (especially in TNG) where "off-screen" crewmen would walk in to take over stations when Picard would announce that his entire bridge crew was beaming down. Didya ever wonder where they were coming from? I certainly did...
 
Central casting?:lol:

No, but seriously, some valid points. in regards to standby crew, wouldn't be likely that there would be an "on-duty" mess? Your ward room off the bridge? This would be used for dining of bridge staff while on duty. As far as restroom breaks, I stand by my assessment. Standby crew would not be needed for this brief a time away from station. If a bathroom break is taking that long, then the crew member in question probably needs to go to the medical facility.:lol:
 
A Romulan warbird can drop its cloak and fire before the helmsman in the head has a chance to even zip up, so no, the helm is one of those stations that would be manned, 24/7, regardless of the alert condition. The only exception is if the ship is hard docked at a station, in which case the sucker isn't going anywhere, so time for Mr. Leslie to raise some hell on shore.
 
^I found it, looks cool:

http://bsmbow.blogspot.com/

Scroll down a bit to see the design sketches. You can almost see the origins of a lot of the TNG designs in it.

OT: I want to enthusiastically recommed David Gerrold's Starhunt, as well as his novels about the Star Wolf (Voyage of the Star Wolf, Middle of Nowhere, and Blood and Fire). These books are very well done, IMO, and present a very interesting non-Trek view of how things might work on a starship. Starhunt and Middle of Nowhere especially go into a lot of nuts and bolts sort of issues one might find on a starship.

I've read Gerrold's series bible and the first four scripts for his proposed Star Wolf TV series, and it would be fantastic stuff. It pains me to no end that it hasn't been produced and aired. Yet. Hopefully some producer and/or studio will eventually give this property the attention it (and David Gerrold) deserves.
 
^I found it, looks cool:

http://bsmbow.blogspot.com/

Scroll down a bit to see the design sketches. You can almost see the origins of a lot of the TNG designs in it.

OT: I want to enthusiastically recommed David Gerrold's Starhunt, as well as his novels about the Star Wolf (Voyage of the Star Wolf, Middle of Nowhere, and Blood and Fire). These books are very well done, IMO, and present a very interesting non-Trek view of how things might work on a starship. Starhunt and Middle of Nowhere especially go into a lot of nuts and bolts sort of issues one might find on a starship.

I've read Gerrold's series bible and the first four scripts for his proposed Star Wolf TV series, and it would be fantastic stuff. It pains me to no end that it hasn't been produced and aired. Yet. Hopefully some producer and/or studio will eventually give this property the attention it (and David Gerrold) deserves.

I think MIDDLE OF NOWHERE was really bad, but the other two are good. None of them hold a candle to the longer late 70s version of YESTERDAY'S CHILDREN though, which was going to be made into a feature called STARHUNT in the early 80s before it all went wrong. I went through YC with a highlighter pen and found everything I needed for a screenplay already in there, it is dynamite.
 
Main thing is that STAR WOLF would be great to see on TV or direct to DVD or theatrical.

I spent a lot of time coming up with an antitrek concept in the early 90s, and it probably falls somewhere between STAR WOLF and FIREFLY (not as questionable on the science as the latter, but also not as great on characterization as the latter.)

And in large part, STAR WOLF seems to be Gerrold's AntiTNG (or TNG done right for those of us who don't see the magic there.)
 
While it's nifty to finally see the Roger Burlingame, I'd like to see a decent picture of the Star Wolf. Frankly, the description in the books makes it sound like a heavily armed potato.
 
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