City on the Edge of Forever-A question

[E-DUB]

It occurs to me that there is a bit of a paradox in this episode that I never realized until now. The encounter between Edith Keeler and the truck occurred three times. The original unaltered timeline, the version where McCoy saves her life, and the final version (the only one we actually witness) in which Kirk stops McCoy from doing so.

In that version, Edith is walking with Kirk and mentions McCoy. He tells her to wait here and goes across the street. She would have been safe crossing with him, she waits long enough for the truck that kills her to approach. She then decides to go to Kirk and is hit.

But in the first two iterations Kirk wasn't there. So her reasons, both for being at that scene and transiting the street are unclear. So I have to ask: Why did Edith Keeler cross the road?

(Feel free to answer seriously or tongue-in-cheek.)

 

[Methuselah Flint]

I always assumed she was "destined" to be at that spot. Be it an evening stroll alone (versions 1 and 2 perhaps), or with Kirk (version 3).

Being a Doctor Who fan as well, I take her death to be a "fixed moment" that has to happen.

This runs with Spock's theory that he and Kirk will arrive at the same focal point as McCoy:

SPOCK: There could be some logic to the belief that time is fluid, like a river, with currents, eddies, backwash.
KIRK: And the same currents that swept McCoy to a certain time and place might sweep us there, too.

Just my tuppence worth. YMMV.

 

[Yistaan]

I always assumed she was "destined" to be at that spot. Be it an evening stroll alone (versions 1 and 2 perhaps), or with Kirk (version 3).

It's a pretty silly sci-fi trope but unfortunately Strange New Worlds has basically said that "fixed" moments that have to happen exist in Star Trek (not unlike in Marvel or Dr. Who). Pike getting crippled is basically all but said to be such an event.

Still it's strange that kidnapping Edith and taking her to the future is never brought up as a possibility.

 

[E-DUB]

It's a pretty silly sci-fi trope but unfortunately Strange New Worlds has basically said that "fixed" moments that have to happen exist in Star Trek (not unlike in Marvel or Dr. Who). Pike getting crippled is basically all but said to be such an event.

Still it's strange that kidnapping Edith and taking her to the future is never brought up as a possibility.

Actually, not a possibility. It's not like they controlled the Guardian. It wouldn't bring them back unless they restored the timeline. If Edith didn't die, they were all stuck there. Much as McCoy was in timeline two. Even the attempts by later teams of Scotty, Uhura and the nameless ones wouldn't have helped this version of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy.

 

[Iamnotspock]

I always assumed she was "destined" to be at that spot. Be it an evening stroll alone (versions 1 and 2 perhaps), or with Kirk (version 3).

That's what David R. George went with in the novel Crucible: Provenance of Shadows, which depicts timeline 2, in which McCoy saves Edith. IIRC, Edith decides to take in the Clark Gable movie alone, crosses the street but forgets something and turns back, lost in thought, as the truck approaches.

 

[Roundabout]

So I have to ask: Why did Edith Keeler cross the road?

(Feel free to answer seriously or tongue-in-cheek.)

Edith crossed the road for the same reason that the chicken crossed the road. No, it's not funny, I know. So, I am not going to go further down that road.

On a more serious note, there was a somewhat overlooked character whose presence proved to be crucial in linking the chain of events that eventually led to Edith's accident and the righting of history.

Granted, the character wasn't physically present in the episode, but who was present in spirit.

I am talking about Clark Gable.

Earlier in the episode, McCoy expressed ignorance about Clark Gable, when Edith brought up the movie star's name. Edith made a mental note of McCoy's ignorance.

As Edith and Kirk were going out on the town, Edith specifically mentioned catching a Clark Gable movie. Kirk was oblivious to the name Clark Gable. This prompted Edith to tell Kirk about her earlier encounter with a man named McCoy who had the same reaction to Clark Gable that Kirk just had.

Clark Gable was the key link. One thing led to another. Edith met her fate. History was made right again, thanks in part to Clark Gable.

Strange as it may seem, Clark Gable played a critical role in "The City on the Edge of Forever".

Btw, did Clark Gable ever work for Paramount or Desilu studios?

 

[scotpens]

Btw, did Clark Gable ever work for Paramount or Desilu studios?

No. Gable starred in several movies that were distributed by Paramount in the 1950s, before Gulf & Western acquired both Paramount and Desilu (which then became Paramount Television).

A more relevant question is: Why would Edith talk about going to see a “Clark Gable movie” in 1930, when Gable was an unknown bit-player? He didn’t become a star until he co-starred with Jean Harlow in Red Dust two years later.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It occurs to me that there is a bit of a paradox in this episode that I never realized until now. The encounter between Edith Keeler and the truck occurred three times. The original unaltered timeline, the version where McCoy saves her life, and the final version (the only one we actually witness) in which Kirk stops McCoy from doing so.

In that version, Edith is walking with Kirk and mentions McCoy. He tells her to wait here and goes across the street. She would have been safe crossing with him, she waits long enough for the truck that kills her to approach. She then decides to go to Kirk and is hit.

But in the first two iterations Kirk wasn't there. So her reasons, both for being at that scene and transiting the street are unclear. So I have to ask: Why did Edith Keeler cross the road?

(Feel free to answer seriously or tongue-in-cheek.)

Yeah, this comes up a lot.

There's no evidence that there is an "original unaltered timeline." It's possible there was one, maybe, but there's no evidence it ever existed.

There are only the two timelines witnessed in the episode, as scanned into Spock's tricorder.

Furthermore, at the end, the Guardian says, "All is as it was before." Taken literally, that would imply that they were always predestined to intervene, and the "original unaltered timeline" does not exist, there is no such thing.

 

[mb22]

Here is a (long) previous thread on this topic:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/is-...on-in-the-city-on-the-edge-of-forever.313993/

 

[blssdwlf]

Yeah, this comes up a lot.

There's no evidence that there is an "original unaltered timeline." It's possible there was one, maybe, but there's no evidence it ever existed.

There are only the two timelines witnessed in the episode, as scanned into Spock's tricorder.

Furthermore, at the end, the Guardian says, "All is as it was before." Taken literally, that would imply that they were always predestined to intervene, and the "original unaltered timeline" does not exist, there is no such thing.

Right before McCoy jumped into the time portal Spock recorded the "original unaltered timeline". And then he recorded the altered one afterwards. The Guardian makes a curious comment that "It will be as though none of you had gone" once Kirk and Spock are successful.

It would seem that the Guardian is aware of the "original unaltered timeline" but has no problems encouraging anyone to go muck about in it to change or return it to its shape. I wonder if no one fixed McCoy's changes if the Guardian would consider that as the new "original unaltered timeline".

Prior to Kirk and Spock entering the time portal we have these lines:

KIRK: Make sure we arrive before McCoy got there. It's vital we stop him before he does whatever it was that changed all history. Guardian, if we are successful...
GUARDIAN: Then you will be returned. It will be as though none of you had gone.​

and when successful...

GUARDIAN: Time has resumed its shape. All is as it was before. Many such journeys are possible. Let me be your gateway.​

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Perhaps the car would have jumped the curb and killed her, with no other damage to anyone else.

It isn't enough for her to be removed from the timeline. She must be dead, be seen to be dead, and buried/given a funeral.

Btw, did Clark Gable ever work for Paramount or Desilu studios?

No, but he gets name checked in "I Love Lucy" - he's one of Lucy's disguises when she's tricking a nearsighted Caroline Appleby into thinking he came to visit.

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

Why did Edith Keeler cross the road?

Maybe she didn't at times. Perhaps the car jumped the curb?

It's a pretty silly sci-fi trope but unfortunately Strange New Worlds has basically said that "fixed" moments that have to happen exist in Star Trek (not unlike in Marvel or Dr. Who).

How many moments are fixed? Key ones only? I might believe ALL moments might be set in time-stone, but even then that wouldn't hold up in reality thanks to butterfly effects. One real non-TREK example: John Tower was refused a cabinet position, later wrote a book about his career, then died with his daughter on a plane crash en route to a signing. No possible fix there....

 

[mb22]

A more relevant question is: Why would Edith talk about going to see a “Clark Gable movie” in 1930, when Gable was an unknown bit-player? He didn’t become a star until he co-starred with Jean Harlow in Red Dust two years later.

From The Best of Trek #5:

 

[mb22]

It occurs to me that there is a bit of a paradox in this episode that I never realized until now. The encounter between Edith Keeler and the truck occurred three times. The original unaltered timeline, the version where McCoy saves her life, and the final version (the only one we actually witness) in which Kirk stops McCoy from doing so.

In that version, Edith is walking with Kirk and mentions McCoy. He tells her to wait here and goes across the street. She would have been safe crossing with him, she waits long enough for the truck that kills her to approach. She then decides to go to Kirk and is hit.

But in the first two iterations Kirk wasn't there. So her reasons, both for being at that scene and transiting the street are unclear. So I have to ask: Why did Edith Keeler cross the road?

(Feel free to answer seriously or tongue-in-cheek.)

 

[Poltargyst]

Yeah, this comes up a lot.

There's no evidence that there is an "original unaltered timeline." It's possible there was one, maybe, but there's no evidence it ever existed.

There are only the two timelines witnessed in the episode, as scanned into Spock's tricorder.

Furthermore, at the end, the Guardian says, "All is as it was before." Taken literally, that would imply that they were always predestined to intervene, and the "original unaltered timeline" does not exist, there is no such thing.

I'm sure we are meant to understand that there was an original timeline and our heroes restored it.

 

[Poltargyst]

No. Gable starred in several movies that were distributed by Paramount in the 1950s, before Gulf & Western acquired both Paramount and Desilu (which then became Paramount Television).

A more relevant question is: Why would Edith talk about going to see a “Clark Gable movie” in 1930, when Gable was an unknown bit-player? He didn’t become a star until he co-starred with Jean Harlow in Red Dust two years later.

Clearly the timeline had already been altered even before McCoy's appearance.

 

[Pauln6]

In Many Worlds theory, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that the protagonists were dragged into the alternate timeline along with McCoy. It's all about them getting back to a timeline that's similar to their starting point. Either way, the timelines exist regardless. Can you imagine the amount of energy needed to create or destroy a timeline? They either exist or they don't and in many worlds theory, everything exists.

 

[Phaser Two]

No. Gable starred in several movies that were distributed by Paramount in the 1950s, before Gulf & Western acquired both Paramount and Desilu (which then became Paramount Television).

A more relevant question is: Why would Edith talk about going to see a “Clark Gable movie” in 1930, when Gable was an unknown bit-player? He didn’t become a star until he co-starred with Jean Harlow in Red Dust two years later.

I think this was another example of Edith's foresight. Heck, maybe she was the offspring of a Prophet.

 

[Henoch]

From The Best of Trek #5:

Can't be the movie, Dance, Fools, Dance since it was not released until February 21, 1931.

 

[Metryq]

In Many Worlds theory, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that the protagonists were dragged into the alternate timeline along with McCoy. It's all about them getting back to a timeline that's similar to their starting point. Either way, the timelines exist regardless. Can you imagine the amount of energy needed to create or destroy a timeline? They either exist or they don't and in many worlds theory, everything exists.

Explain how the landing party jumped universes away from their own with the Enterprise. The episode is emotional, and a fan favorite, but it doesn't make sense.