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Chris Pine Wants To Know What’s Going On With Next Star Trek Movie

Die-hards who get offended at things like Khan being British really hated Into Darkness on principle alone. The rest of the world liked it quite a bit.

Trekkies are weird like that.

people calling a movie out on its whitewashing hardly is an example of looking for pretexts to get offended, though.

There are some movies recently that flopped hard because of this kind of controversy so I think we can consider stid lucky as it hardly, if any, suffered the same fate (and I might add that Benedict's career wasn't negatively affected by that, nor he, honestly, got the hate that other actors get because most of the criticism was only directed at JJ and the writers)

if we want to talk about how much stid's 'flaws' are blown out of proportion compared to what the movie is as a whole, and its possible merits (especially compared to some old trek movies - or movies from other franchises - that are far worse products), that's another matter.
This is, perhaps, another difference between how Beyond is judged compared to stid because while with beyond, the movie seems to get a pass for its flaws because people like some aspects of it better than the other movies, stid is trashed as a whole because of some aspects that fans disliked. In both cases, fans are maybe lacking 'balance' because either something is overrated beyond proportions, or the opposite.

This 'backlash' I still don't see in any way, shape, or form bar that poxy poll at that convention that voted it the worst Trek film of all time (worse than TFF, INS? Really?). Into Darkness was well received and the most financially successful Trek movie of all time. Also, I don't see where the TOS nostalgia was in STID either, I thought Beyond leaned much more in that direction. STID had easter eggs and callbacks sure, but Beyond really felt like a big screen TOS outing to me.


IMHO, star trek into darkness is the new disguised as the old: they got a cold feet, perhaps, and put some tos nods trying to pander to those old fans who didn't like the first movie and felt alienated by it being too 'different', almost as a (naive?) way to reassure some that things were still the same (e.g., trying to make K/S the same bestfriendsforever duo they were at the end of tos without allowing them the time to truly create their own dynamic), but it's still unapologetic new trek - their own trek - set in another reality. It's still a movie not made only for tos fans (and JJ made it clear from the start, putting himself in the blacklist of many tos fans for that^), and that's why haters and 'purists' still hate it (and that's why the hypocrisy of people who criticize stid for its nods, but then claim that Beyond is the best movie in spite of it being worse in that regard);
star trek beyond was
the old disguised as the new: they desperately wanted to please old fans and win their heart (in a self-serving way too, of course) so it does have even more fan service and tos nods than stid had; it's a way more tos nostalgia movie than stid was, and it distances itself from the first movie and makes even less use of potential the reboot had at the beginning, in a way ignoring most of the 'new' in favor of the old.
It's kind of bizarre, in a sense, that after stid was criticized for its nods and nostalgia, the new team apparently thought they'd fix that by making a movie that.. has even more nods and nostalgia. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You could say that stid tried to 'trick' old fans into watching a new trek, while beyond tried to trick new fans into watching the same old trek. In both cases, it backfired.. I think more for beyond than stid.

The annoying thing for me is that for all the new team's preaching about how progressive and new Beyond is compared to the previous movies, where it really counts their movie actually is more safe and consevative than the first two, and they went backwards even with the few little 'gutsy' things that JJ had actually modernized and made more contemporary already (and that, when all is said and done, this trek was remembered for)
The most notable example is them trying to restore the old dynamic at the expense of the new that the first movies introduced and had made their established 'formula'; I know that marketing for the most part still considers the new trio with Uhura the 'face' of this trek, so to speak, and so do the comics (which would itself hint at them knowing that it works for new fans), but let's be honest here it's misleading for Beyond because it's undeniable that the movie tried to distance itself from that and placate those who wanted the old trio back and they don't like 'change', let alone making a woman (and a woc) the third lead instead of a white guy. This is something that a certain side of the old fandom loved about Beyond, the nostalgia making them give the movie a pass for stuff they still criticize stid for, and yet the new dynamics had worked for the first movies so I think paying homage to the old by making it mutually exclusive with the new wasn't a good idea.

Honestly, this is a larger issue with some trek fans in general who want to have the cake and eat it too when it comes to some things: this hypocrisy, this pretentious preaching about a supposed 'trek's ideal' and how this franchise should be more progressive and inclusive etc etc than other things... and yet? and yet it's obvious that some people love trek because of its most conservative aspects (that essentially make it only 'one of the many', especially nowadays) and they don't want those to change. Those supposedly more progressive and 'modern' aspects are acceptable to many only if they are just some sort of 'decoration' making the conservative stuff look better. So you can have poc in the cast, as long as they are kept in the background and don't interact with the main guys as much as McCoy and Scotty do. You can have ~strong female characters that can kick a$$, as long as they don't have a long lasting important connection to the main guys - and thus can't be perceived as a 'threat' to that part of the fandom that will have a nervous breakdown if you don't decipt anyone but Kirk as asexuate beings, and if you're allowed to see other dynamics beside the bros being bros.

The irony is that the more trek tries to look like this so called 'trek ideal' some keep preaching about, the more supposedly hardcore fans dislike it.
 
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Great point. Whitewashing is a serious subject and hardly qualifies as fans' nitpicking.

"Whitewashing". . .such a ridiculous left wing agenda driven term, I can barely bring myself to type it. It's not a serious subject at all, unless you want me to bring up Felix Leiter and Robert McCall as examples of "blackwashing".

Now I've said that, I'll just sit back and wait for the inevitable screaming hoards of left wing blacks, sorry, people of colour, led by the pitch fork wielding, Malcolm X wannabe, Samuel L Jackson.
 
"Whitewashing". . .such a ridiculous left wing agenda driven term, I can barely bring myself to type it. It's not a serious subject at all, unless you want me to bring up Felix Leiter and Robert McCall as examples of "blackwashing".

Now I've said that, I'll just sit back and wait for the inevitable screaming hoards of left wing blacks, sorry, people of colour, led by the pitch fork wielding, Malcolm X wannabe, Samuel L Jackson.
Also don't forget to wash your white hood...
 
Much of it is down to low fan expectation based on how poor Enterprise was until the final season, the last two Abrams films, CBS' killing of fan productions, CBS failing to do anything other than sweet FA for last year's 50th, and all the negative press, delays, and general debacle surrounding Discovery. In the eyes of many fans, Voyager wasn't up to much either, so for them, it's quite possible they've not seen what they view as decent Star Trek since DS9 finished 18 years ago. It's hard to get interested when it was that long ago since any decent output especially since now we have Blu-ray, people like me have more than enough episodes of Trek I do want to watch.

Unless you pay for Neflix and have the internet speed to watch it, or you use torrents, no one in the UK will be able to watch Discovery anyway. So, in addition to all the above, why get excited about something if you won't even be able to see it?

I suspect there are many hard core fans who don't want Discovery. They want DS9 remastered. I'm one of them. I make no apology for that.

Well I've been a Trek fan since 1979, so it's a big deal to me if a new series get aired. I'll be paying the Netflix subscription for it without hesitation. If it turns out to be complete shite then I'll stop watching it. I certainly won't pass judgement on something without giving it a good chance, simple as that. Then I'll be in a credible position to slate it on here should I choose to. DS9 was pretty uneven to say the least for three whole seasons, yet still managed seven. People just don't seem to have any patience with shows these days.

I'm as disappointed as anyone with the underperformance of Beyond/handling of the 50th, but there's no way I'm not watching Discovery. Why would I deny myself that?

Refusing to watch it is just contributing to it's demise, if that is to happen, then we'll have nothing. Then you really can forget about any DS9 remaster (not that I believe it's going to happen anyway but you see my point) :techman:
 
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"Whitewashing". . .such a ridiculous left wing agenda driven term, I can barely bring myself to type it. It's not a serious subject at all, unless you want me to bring up Felix Leiter and Robert McCall as examples of "blackwashing".

Now I've said that, I'll just sit back and wait for the inevitable screaming hoards of left wing blacks, sorry, people of colour, led by the pitch fork wielding, Malcolm X wannabe, Samuel L Jackson.
Oh great, you're back.

Infraction for trolling. Comments to PM.


Everyone else, let's just ignore the post and move on after this. It's not worth commenting on.
 
Refusing to watch it is just contributing to it's demise, if that is to happen, then we'll have nothing. Then you really can forget about any DS9 remaster (not that I believe it's going to happen anyway but you see my point)

I don't buy the idea some fans have that rejecting Discovery is going to somehow motivate CBS to spend millions doing an HD remaster of twenty-plus year old material.

The only way DS9/Voyager get their HD facelifts is for Discovery to hit it out of the park on viewership.
 
I don't buy the idea some fans have that rejecting Discovery is going to somehow motivate CBS to spend millions doing an HD remaster of twenty-plus year old material.

The only way DS9/Voyager get their HD facelifts is for Discovery to hit it out of the park on viewership.

And the award for most insightfull post goes to...... ;) ;) ;)

Seriously though... I'm a Niner, through and through. And although I'd love to see that spinning bicycle wheel spinning in Full HD glory, if I need to choose between new Trek or fancier old Trek, it's not a hard choice really.
 
I don't buy the idea some fans have that rejecting Discovery is going to somehow motivate CBS to spend millions doing an HD remaster of twenty-plus year old material.

The only way DS9/Voyager get their HD facelifts is for Discovery to hit it out of the park on viewership.

Eeeexactly. It's like stopping supporting your favourite sports team then complaining when they can't afford the best players and get relegated.
 
Whether or not one likes it is up to individual tastes. The claims that it is a remake of TWoK come across as lazy, whoever is making them.
You're right that it wasn't a total remake of TWOK, but it borrowed heavily from it, especially for character development.
 
Die-hards who get offended at things like Khan being British really hated Into Darkness on principle alone. The rest of the world liked it quite a bit.

Trekkies are weird like that.
You know, I always thought that maybe a script about augment would it be interesting for public, but not exactly Khan, a plot involving Augments from the 20th century. Admiral Marcus "awakes" a group of frozen embryos. And one of them begin to look for a Botany Bay.
 
You're right that it wasn't a total remake of TWOK, but it borrowed heavily from it, especially for character development.

Oh please. Where did it borrow from TWOK with regards to character development? It was the reactor scene, the 'you'd better get down here' line... and that's it.
 
They also serioustly need someone who knows what to do when it comes to marketing because it sucked big time last time.

They did a lot of promotion in Australia, including a high-profile and positively received tour by several cast members, but its box office fell well short of the previous films.

I'd put that down more to the mediocre reviews and lack of a big selling point for the film than the marketing.

That's why Hemsworth's involvement in the next one is a positive - it needs that additional star power.
 
They did a lot of promotion in Australia, including a high-profile and positively received tour by several cast members, but its box office fell well short of the previous films.

I'd put that down more to the mediocre reviews and lack of a big selling point for the film than the marketing.

That's why Hemsworth's involvement in the next one is a positive - it needs that additional star power.

Is Hemsworth really a big draw? I don't think so. I'd rather see some cash spent on a bigger star than him to be honest.
 
Is Hemsworth really a big draw? I don't think so. I'd rather see some cash spent on a bigger star than him to be honest.

I don't see Kirk dealing with Daddy issues being that big of a draw, honestly. But, then, The Force Awakens did a billion dollars on the back of Kylo Ren's Daddy issues.

So, what do I know?
 
It's certainly a draw for me. I want to see Kirk's 3-movie long daddy issues arc come to an end when sci-fi magic allows him to actually meet his father.
 
people calling a movie out on its whitewashing hardly is an example of looking for pretexts to get offended, though.

There are some movies recently that flopped hard because of this kind of controversy so I think we can consider stid lucky as it hardly, if any, suffered the same fate (and I might add that Benedict's career wasn't negatively affected by that, nor he, honestly, got the hate that other actors get because most of the criticism was only directed at JJ and the writers)

if we want to talk about how much stid's 'flaws' are blown out of proportion compared to what the movie is as a whole, and its possible merits (especially compared to some old trek movies - or movies from other franchises - that are far worse products), that's another matter.
This is, perhaps, another difference between how Beyond is judged compared to stid because while with beyond, the movie seems to get a pass for its flaws because people like some aspects of it better than the other movies, stid is trashed as a whole because of some aspects that fans disliked. In both cases, fans are maybe lacking 'balance' because either something is overrated beyond proportions, or the opposite.




IMHO, star trek into darkness is the new disguised as the old: they got a cold feet, perhaps, and put some tos nods trying to pander to those old fans who didn't like the first movie and felt alienated by it being too 'different', almost as a (naive?) way to reassure some that things were still the same (e.g., trying to make K/S the same bestfriendsforever duo they were at the end of tos without allowing them the time to truly create their own dynamic), but it's still unapologetic new trek - their own trek - set in another reality. It's still a movie not made only for tos fans (and JJ made it clear from the start, putting himself in the blacklist of many tos fans for that^), and that's why haters and 'purists' still hate it (and that's why the hypocrisy of people who criticize stid for its nods, but then claim that Beyond is the best movie in spite of it being worse in that regard);
star trek beyond was
the old disguised as the new: they desperately wanted to please old fans and win their heart (in a self-serving way too, of course) so it does have even more fan service and tos nods than stid had; it's a way more tos nostalgia movie than stid was, and it distances itself from the first movie and makes even less use of potential the reboot had at the beginning, in a way ignoring most of the 'new' in favor of the old.
It's kind of bizarre, in a sense, that after stid was criticized for its nods and nostalgia, the new team apparently thought they'd fix that by making a movie that.. has even more nods and nostalgia. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You could say that stid tried to 'trick' old fans into watching a new trek, while beyond tried to trick new fans into watching the same old trek. In both cases, it backfired.. I think more for beyond than stid.

The annoying thing for me is that for all the new team's preaching about how progressive and new Beyond is compared to the previous movies, where it really counts their movie actually is more safe and consevative than the first two, and they went backwards even with the few little 'gutsy' things that JJ had actually modernized and made more contemporary already (and that, when all is said and done, this trek was remembered for)
The most notable example is them trying to restore the old dynamic at the expense of the new that the first movies introduced and had made their established 'formula'; I know that marketing for the most part still considers the new trio with Uhura the 'face' of this trek, so to speak, and so do the comics (which would itself hint at them knowing that it works for new fans), but let's be honest here it's misleading for Beyond because it's undeniable that the movie tried to distance itself from that and placate those who wanted the old trio back and they don't like 'change', let alone making a woman (and a woc) the third lead instead of a white guy. This is something that a certain side of the old fandom loved about Beyond, the nostalgia making them give the movie a pass for stuff they still criticize stid for, and yet the new dynamics had worked for the first movies so I think paying homage to the old by making it mutually exclusive with the new wasn't a good idea.

Honestly, this is a larger issue with some trek fans in general who want to have the cake and eat it too when it comes to some things: this hypocrisy, this pretentious preaching about a supposed 'trek's ideal' and how this franchise should be more progressive and inclusive etc etc than other things... and yet? and yet it's obvious that some people love trek because of its most conservative aspects (that essentially make it only 'one of the many', especially nowadays) and they don't want those to change. Those supposedly more progressive and 'modern' aspects are acceptable to many only if they are just some sort of 'decoration' making the conservative stuff look better. So you can have poc in the cast, as long as they are kept in the background and don't interact with the main guys as much as McCoy and Scotty do. You can have ~strong female characters that can kick a$$, as long as they don't have a long lasting important connection to the main guys - and thus can't be perceived as a 'threat' to that part of the fandom that will have a nervous breakdown if you don't decipt anyone but Kirk as asexuate beings, and if you're allowed to see other dynamics beside the bros being bros.

The irony is that the more trek tries to look like this so called 'trek ideal' some keep preaching about, the more supposedly hardcore fans dislike it.
the three films have given nods to TOS Trek. what people did not like about stid is that it directly lifted an iconic scene from wrath of khan without carry the same weight. 09 and Beyond did none of that.

STID used a villain that was so iconic to trek that if we were ever to see him again, it would not have been what we got with Khan from stid. Beyond and 09 had original villains and their stories could stand on its own unlike khan from into darkness. it is why I think beyond can get a pass and stid cant.
 
I don't see Kirk dealing with Daddy issues being that big of a draw, honestly. But, then, The Force Awakens did a billion dollars on the back of Kylo Ren's Daddy issues.

So, what do I know?

I guess at this point it's if enough people remember the beginning of ST09 and the story behind the reboot movies and still give a shit about it. Beyond's underperformance suggests otherwise to me.
 
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