Chivalry: It's dead, Jim.

[Rii]

Rii, no she cleaned the house yesterday.
By the way, what's your opinion on this. For the eight years I have known my wife I have opened her car door for her whenever we're together. Is this outdated or acceptable to you?

It strikes me as rather inefficient, but nothing more than that. As your wife is someone with whom you can be assumed to share a bond of some description, it's not at all the same thing. If you were to suggest that a man opening the car door for a woman is giving her the respect she's due, or that men who don't open car doors for women are being impolite, then we would have a problem.

Incidentally, I was just struck by the mental image of a lesbian couple attempting to follow these "traditions" and becoming stuck in an infinite loop.

For that matter the freedom of a lot of men throughout history were being suppressed as well. Chivalry itself is a male code of ethics which comes from the medieval knights. Being helpful to women is part of that code and so is being a defender of the weak (which was gender neutral btw) but by no means those were the only tenets of that code.

As you say, chivalry originates from medieval knights, knights who were amongst the highest-standing members of society. To be chivalrous is to be a man of standing in polite society, to be anything else is to be a member of the proletariat. Chivalry simultaneously affirms the dominance of the male whilst congratulating him for not exercising that dominance, it's masturbation.

 

[Trekker4747]

I don't do it for guys because I hold a different/higher level of respect for women than I do men. I suppose its a biological part of being straight in combination of how I was raised.

Let me ask you something.

Say you're in a very crowded movie theater. You're sitting in your favortie seat -likely in a row half way up- and a woman comes up the aisle and looks around disapointed. You see, all of the seats are taken except for a few in the very front row.

Do you give up your seat?

 

[An Officer]

^ Not the same situation.

 

[Trekker4747]

^ Not the same situation.

Not exactly, but in principle perhaps.

You have a seat. A seat that is desired by a woman.

Do you give up your seat for her so she isn't forced to sit in the worst row in the theater where she'll strain her neck.

 

[Holdfast]

I love that people are STILL trying to use logical arguments to denigrate (and in one or two cases, justify) a pleasant & harmless social nicety that does not need external logic to be either justified or upheld. Social interaction is not about logic (though it certainly has its rules), it's about a pleasant, contented & well-greased slide through daily life.

You can't buy this sort of entertainment. Unless you're a Premium Member here. In which case, you're probably feeling ripped off right now.

 

[Iasius]

^^ Hey! I post and read TNZ (after taking a vacation for a couple of months recently). That's actually what many people are here for.

 

[Holdfast]

^^ Hey! I post and read TNZ (after taking a vacation for a couple of months recently). That's actually what many people are here for.

True.

I'm not knocking it as a leisure activity.

Only pointing out that I enjoy the extra-comfy ringside seats and the high-quality popcorn available here.

 

[Rii]

I love that people are STILL trying to use logical arguments to denigrate (and in one or two cases, justify) a pleasant & harmless social nicety that does not need external logic to be either justified or upheld. Social interaction is not about logic (though it certainly has its rules), it's about a pleasant, contented & well-greased slide through daily life.

Like burqas.

 

[Trippy]

I love that people are STILL trying to use logical arguments to denigrate (and in one or two cases, justify) a pleasant & harmless social nicety that does not need external logic to be either justified or upheld. Social interaction is not about logic (though it certainly has its rules), it's about a pleasant, contented & well-greased slide through daily life.

I will appreciate all nice, courteous acts committed by a man. It's human nature to enjoy being appreciated. I'm not one to shit on someone being courteous and polite. There's so little in this world (and indeed, this thread ) that I'll enjoy it when offered. I've opened doors for men too

You can't buy this sort of entertainment. Unless you're a Premium Member here. In which case, you're probably feeling ripped off right now.

That's what keeps me coming back!

 

[RJDiogenes]

Holdy is exactly right. It's not about legislation. It's not even about custom. It's about a lifestyle choice. My lifestyle choice includes being dashing and debonair. I grew up watching Alexander Mundy, Napoleon Solo and John Steed, after all.

I'm nice to men, too, just in a slightly different way. When I hold a door for a woman, I always smile at her; when I hold a door for a guy, I never smile-- I just nod manfully.

 

[Trekker4747]

Here's something to consider.

Maybe no one on this bus gave up their seat for the woman because no one wanted to get clocked by the husband?

He'd likely take it as someone "hitting on" his wife or making him look bad infront of her.

 

[Iasius]

^^

I'd write more, but I think that smiley captures my reaction perfectly.

 

[Rii]

Here's something to consider.
Maybe no one on this bus gave up their seat for the woman because no one wanted to get clocked by the husband?
He'd likely take it as someone "hitting on" his wife or making him look bad infront of her.

Obviously the chivalrous thing to do in this situation would be to provoke the husband into a fistfight, allowing him to win and take your seat which he would then be able to give up to his wife. Having demonstrated his superior plumage twice over, the female would barely be able to restrain herself from presenting to him then and there.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Something similar happened to me, years ago when I used to go to First Night. I actually had a seat on the train, miracle of miracles, and a couple came in and stood next to me. The guy was obnoxiously drunk and the woman clearly dismayed by it, so I stood up and gave her my seat and stared at the guy, making him uncomfortable, until we got to their stop and they left. He didn't try to clock me, though, he just tried to buddy up; but I just stared disparagingly at him.

 

[Trekker4747]

^^

I'd write more, but I think that smiley captures my reaction perfectly.

Think about. Guy takes a seat over his wife.

He's sitting there, she standing there, they've a close, playful, relationship and she takes it for the joke that it is. Then some guy with a blackberry and a goatee stands up and offers his seat to the lady.

This guy has just showed-up the husband and maybe subtlely or preceptively flirted with his wife. He may not take kindly to that.

 

[Iasius]

Something similar happened to me, years ago when I used to go to First Night. I actually had a seat on the train, miracle of miracles, and a couple came in and stood next to me. The guy was obnoxiously drunk and the woman clearly dismayed by it, so I stood up and gave her my seat and stared at the guy, making him uncomfortable, until we got to their stop and they left. He didn't try to clock me, though, he just tried to buddy up; but I just stared disparagingly at him.

Are you sure he wasn't just subliminally inviting you to come along for some fun?

 

[RJDiogenes]

I'm sure if there had been anyone interested in having fun with him that night, he would have disappointed them.

 

[Daneel]

I feel the need to clarify my position, just in case I didn't do so the first time.

Speaking for myself, I am NOT criticizing any guy who does give up his seat for a woman. If that's what you want to do, fair enough. And yes, it is a nice gesture, and I'm sure some women do appreciate it.

I, however, don't view this custom in the same way. I'm all for nice gestures, but I don't see why they can't extend to both genders. Yes, yes, I know... upbringing... tradition. Well, I've always thought that traditions were made to be broken.

I guess it comes down to this: some guys will give up their seat for a lady as a sign of respect for women -- okay, fine. Good for them. As strange as it sounds, I do the opposite for the same reason -- to show women that I view them as equals, that I won't, in most circumstances, treat them any differently than I would treat a man. This is my approach; it may not be for everyone, but it works for me.

And if anyone wants to suggest that by having this attitude I am disrespectful towards women, I would beg to differ, and I'm sure that anyone who knows me (including my mother, sister, and female friends) would back me up. As I've said, I'm still polite, I hold doors open for people, I'll lend a hand with something when asked... and, in general, I'm not a douche. If you still think otherwise, well then, them's fightin' words.

 

[Trekker4747]

And if anyone wants to suggest that by having this attitude I am disrespectful towards women, I would beg to differ, and I'm sure that anyone who knows me (including my mother, sister, and female friends) would back me up.

Says the guy with an underwear-clad Orion slave girl avatar.

 

[Daneel]

^^^
I said I'm respectful to women... I said nothing about not continuing to ogle them.

Oh, and she was a Starfleet cadet. Slave girl? I don't think so...