Children on "Botany Bay" and TWOK

[Timo]

Granted, Kirk only sees a few examples of Khan's bridge crew in ST2 (and it's pretty cool that the hero and the villain never come face to face in the movie). But he also has Chekov's testimony to go by. And in "Space Seed", the heroes rather carefully went through the Botany Bay, and established plenty of facts about the crew.

"12 units have malfunctioned, leaving 72 still operating. 30 of those are women."

If they could tell 30 were women (whether by looking, feeling, or using sensors), they probably could have told if 14 were children.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

Immolatus said:
how would Kirk know who was aboard Khans ship. he never transported over. We never see all of Khans crew in "Space Seed" so he might have had children on the Botany Bay. so if he had a 12 year old in space seed he would be about 24 by the time of TWOK

Wrongo. Kirk DID beam over to the Botany Bay. He's the one who broke the glass on Khan's Frigidaire, after all.

Scotty also made an accounting of the functional units, citing what percentage were women. I'm sure he'd have noted children as well.

 

[Timo]

I think Immolatus meant Kirk didn't beam over to the Reliant...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DarthPipes]

Kirk was going to beam over to Reliant after the Enterprise had disabled it. Once Khan got a hold of Genesis, he had to be stopped no matter what.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

^Very true...

 

[Immolatus]

Timo said:
Granted, Kirk only sees a few examples of Khan's bridge crew in ST2 (and it's pretty cool that the hero and the villain never come face to face in the movie). But he also has Chekov's testimony to go by. And in "Space Seed", the heroes rather carefully went through the Botany Bay, and established plenty of facts about the crew.

"12 units have malfunctioned, leaving 72 still operating. 30 of those are women."

If they could tell 30 were women (whether by looking, feeling, or using sensors), they probably could have told if 14 were children.

Timo Saloniemi

true they did mention women, they most likely would have mentioned children too. then again maybe they did a sensor sweep that just told them what the sexes were.

 

[Immolatus]

Timo said:
I think Immolatus meant Kirk didn't beam over to the Reliant...

Timo Saloniemi

^correct

 

[uss_griffin]

Bringing an old thread back to life...
(It was cited in a different, active thread, but my comment is more appropriate for this one.)

If the crew are the children of Khan and/or his original gang, the line about them having sworn their allegiance to Khan before Captain Terrel was born wouldn't make sense. At least a good number of the original 72 must have been present when Khan made that statement (and thus would have been present on Reliant as well). As was said earlier in the thread, though they were not seen on the bridge, they could certainly have been elsewhere on the ship.

 

[Shatmandu]

LavianoTS386 said:

"For hate's sake, I spit my last pacifier at thee!"

Joe, quoter

 

[Therin of Andor]

uss_griffin said:
If the crew are the children of Khan and/or his original gang, the line about them having sworn their allegiance to Khan before Captain Terrel was born wouldn't make sense.

Khan is a madman. Are you going to believe everything he says? Maybe he sees the super-aged teens as representatives of his original people, who did swear allegiance before Terrell was born. Maybe he didn't want Terrell to know that these young blond people were only born 14 years ago, lest Terrell use that information to undermine his plans?

 

[Crewman47]

Possibly the one and only thing I remember being different from the TWOK novel and movie was the scene where Checkov and Terrel first inspect the Botany Bays exterior and we have Checkov who peers through a window and a boy pops up causing Checkov to fall back in shock. They then enter the ship, and iirc, they find the boy and wonder who he is.

I always wonder why this part of the scene wasn't included as every time I see Terrel trying to question Checkov for wanting to leave quickly I always wonder if he's trying to say something about the boy?

 

[dkehler]

Therin of Andor said:

uss_griffin said:
If the crew are the children of Khan and/or his original gang, the line about them having sworn their allegiance to Khan before Captain Terrel was born wouldn't make sense.

Khan is a madman. Are you going to believe everything he says? Maybe he sees the super-aged teens as representatives of his original people, who did swear allegiance before Terrell was born. Maybe he didn't want Terrell to know that these young blond people were only born 14 years ago, lest Terrell use that information to undermine his plans?

Or perhaps Khan's people swore an oath that they and *their family* would forever live and die at his command.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Crewman47 said:
I always wonder why this part of the scene wasn't included as every time I see Terrel trying to question Checkov for wanting to leave quickly I always wonder if he's trying to say something about the boy?

As we said above, there are many reasons the scene was dropped, but it was the name "Botany Bay" on the seatbelt that freaked out Chekov the most, and made him realize they weren't on Ceti Alpha VI.

The novelization has lots of new material. Surely you haven't forgotten all that wonderful Saavik/Peter Preston stuff?

 

[Crewman47]

Well it has been more than 10 years since I read the novel and I had got from the Library. Although I do remember the Preston/Saavik parts and a few other parts, the scene I mentioned was basically the only one that I can remember that stood out the most as I had trouble trying to imagine it in the movie, becuase I had long seen the movie before I read the novel and when you do this it's really hard to read about parts that weren't shown on screen.

Mind you saying that the other thing that does stand out second to the scene to the Botany Bay scene was the fact that Khan had kept Starfleet enginners on the Reliant implanted with Ceti Eels which meant that they would've been killed when the Enterprise was fighting her back. But that's been discussed before and really not part of this topic.

 

[Maurice]

Crewman47 said:
I always wonder why this part of the scene wasn't included as every time I see Terrel trying to question Checkov for wanting to leave quickly I always wonder if he's trying to say something about the boy?

The child was filmed and there was a lot of wonky editing to eliminate the little rugrat. It's noticable because Chekov and Terrell pop from one compartment to the other, and one of Terrell's lines is looped. You can see he mouths "What about rhe child?" when Chekov is trying to beat feet out of the place.